There's a better way to beat the ebook pirates

[Xenophon]

Originally Posted by carld

I wonder if what Baen is doing works so well why are they still the only company of any significance doing this? Baen's been selling their books without DRM for years now, and they're still the only one's doing so.

PS: Yes, I know I said I was done with this thread, and I was, but Baen interests me.

A few more publishers who are DRM-free include:
J. Wiley and Sons
The National Academies Press
O'Reilly Media

I'm not sure where the NAP falls in terms of size. But Wiley is much MUCH bigger than Baen -- they're traded on the NYSE.

Wiley and the NAP both report that switching from DRM to DRM-free hasn't caused them any increase in piracy that they can tell.

My uncle was on Wiley's Board of Directors* when they changed over to DRM-free. He tells me that as they converted publications from DRM to no-DRM, they saw step-wise increases of paper sales shortly afterwards for each book so converted. That's right, PAPER sales measurably UP shortly after the bits became no-DRM. At the same time, eSales went from insignificant to "enough to care about." Note that this was pre-Kindle. All I know post-Kindle is that they're still think that piracy isn't a problem -- I have no idea what data they use to make that determination, however.

As for why so few other companies are following in Baen's footsteps, one can only guess. My personal guess is that it's mostly a matter of agility. Baen's approach happened because the Publisher and owner (Jim Baen) had a whim of steel and decreed that it would be so. And one guy can make decisions far more quickly than even a small organization, much less a large one. Further, as controlling owner and top executive, Jim could take whatever risks he felt were appropriate with no need to convince other managers, investment analysts, corporate parents, etc. -- the company was his to risk.

History has shown that he was correct (IMHO), but that was entirely uncertain eleven years ago when he kicked off Webscriptions and Baen's DRM-free policy. Back then, even I would have questioned the sanity of a major publishing house CEO who'd made a similar choice. Heck -- I thought Jim Baen was nuts!

As for Baen's financials, I have no idea. It's a privately held company, so they need not disclose anything to the public. We do know, however, that Baen has grown substantially over the last decade, even as the publishing industry as a whole has been shrinking. We also know that Toni Weisskopf (now the Publisher and top boss) says that their e-Sales are larger than all foreign sales combined (including Canada), and that those sales have been growing faster than paper sales. (Note: both of these statements are a couple of years old. If you want more up to date info, ask Toni. Who knows... she might answer!)

Xenophon
* Note that all these statements are also somewhere in Wiley's official public statements -- no insider information here, other than getting it from the horse's mouth rather than via press release or SEC filing.

[mr ploppy]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Interestingly, NO ONE responded saying that these scenarios were unlikely. I think people know, deep in their digerati hearts, that bestsellers would be passed around like popcorn if everyone went DRM free,

They already are being passed around like popcorn.

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by carld

A significant publisher would be one that carries books that I've heard of by authors that I'm familiar with. I haven't looked at all the publishers that you linked to, but after looking at half a dozen I've yet to find an author that I know. They may be fine publishers of great books, but they're not even of Baen's minor significance in the larger scheme of publishing. And that isn't intended as a knock against them either, they're just small, and as far as I can tell, they don't carry any mainstream sci-fi or fantasy authors in non-drm formats.

As far as I know, Baen remains the only significant publisher of non-drm science-fiction and fantasy. I have to conclude that while I approve of their business model heartily, if it were really as successful as many claim then other larger companies would be doing it too, and they aren't.

I'd be more than happy to see evidence to the contrary.

There really isn't anyone else BUT Baen. And the reason is simple. Going DRM free is a leap of faith . You take the risk that that your work will be endlessly copied and passed around. If you are just starting out, your intellectual property isn't worth much and you're not losing sales if that happens anyway .

Once you are an established writer, your IP becomes more valuable, you are much more likely to be "shared" ( to use the preferred euphemism) and when that happens, you are losing sales and money. Then you are not so OK with being passed around.
Its worth noting that despite the success of Baen, the vast majority of well known speculative fiction writers use DRM, thank you very much. Guess the people who write the future aren't so gong ho for the DRM free future

[carld]

Originally Posted by Xenophon

My uncle was on Wiley's Board of Directors* when they changed over to DRM-free. He tells me that as they converted publications from DRM to no-DRM, they saw step-wise increases of paper sales shortly afterwards for each book so converted. That's right, PAPER sales measurably UP shortly after the bits became no-DRM. At the same time, eSales went from insignificant to "enough to care about." Note that this was pre-Kindle. All I know post-Kindle is that they're still think that piracy isn't a problem -- I have no idea what data they use to make that determination, however.

Thanks, that's a hopeful sign. Maybe other publishers will follow their lead. I notice though that all three of those publishers are in the scientific, and technical fields, not areas that would seem to be hotspots for piracy, unlike Baen's catalog of popular sci-fi and fantasy books. Perhaps that makes a difference, maybe not.

[queentess]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Going DRM free is a leap of faith . You take the risk that that your work will be endlessly copied and passed around.

Publishing at all (digital or paper) risks that your work will be endlessly copied and passed around. If someone has it, they can copy it or break the DRM or scan it.

It really should be a balance of protecting the author's work and allowing purchasers to use their purchases as they should be allowed. Right now I believe that DRM is far too close to the "protect the author" point on the spectrum. It's not yet at the "happy trade-off" point for both parties involved.

And to speak to a couple other points that I'm too lazy to quote:
1. Purchased books that are later geo-restricted have (in the past) disappeared from people's accounts. This is stupid.
2. There was a point upthread that you tried to turn into "do you think you should be able to purchase any ebook ever published? but print books go out of print!!!" The point of the original poster was this: If I've purchased a book and it's suddenly removed from the book-provider's catalog, I should still be able to access my book, no matter what. If I haven't purchased the book and it's "out of print", then that's fine.

[Karin54]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

If the book is removed from their sales offerings, it may or may not remain available for download.



Geographic restrictions can be added after purchase, preventing further downloads. This happened at Fictionwise. When the book's contract changes, the previous publisher may no longer be legally able to offer it--and ebook stores, despite their promises of permanent access to one's purchased libraries, have been very erratic about providing that. They don't host the books themselves; they contract with the publishers & DRM server hosts to process the books anew every time the buyer wants to download it. If that title is no longer available through that publisher, or that DRM host has changed systems, the book is no longer available.

A diligent reader can convert non-DRM'd ebooks to whatever the new, trendy format is, to make sure it's still readable. And even without much diligence, txt remains a viable backup format for long-term storage. Neither of those options exists with DRM.

That's exactly what happened to me at both Fictionwise and BooksOnBoard. And that is why I started to strip DRM from the books I had already downloaded.

[stonetools]

History has shown that he was correct (IMHO), but that was entirely uncertain eleven years ago when he kicked off Webscriptions and Baen's DRM-free policy. Back then, even I would have questioned the sanity of a major publishing house CEO who'd made a similar choice. Heck -- I thought Jim Baen was nuts!

Baen may be future: or he may just be an outlier.
It may just be that a publisher of speculative fiction, with an emphasis on military sf, who spends time cultivating a following in the techno-geek community, can get away with going DRM free. I note some of the passionate anti DRMists are also devoted followers of Baen. They're kind of invested in Baen's success and they share the whole" everything should be TOTALLY open" ethos. I bet their Android and Linux enthusiasts as well.
A big publishing company, with many lines of books, has different interests and must take a different approach. I didn't think a single one of Elfmark and Xenophon's choices were for general nonfiction or general fiction-the two biggest categories of books published out there.

[Karin54]

Originally Posted by ApK

I know Baen's way has attracted me as a customer. But, of course, Baen's way is legal, doing it at the authors request, with the authors EXERCISING their IP rights to participate or not.
And is SF and fantasy really a small niche? I'd have though it's probably one of the bigger and more popular genres.
ApK

I agree. I'm also a very happy customer at Baen

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Baen may be future: or he may just be an outlier.
It may just be that a publisher of speculative fiction, with an emphasis on military sf, who spends time cultivating a following in the techno-geek community, can get away with going DRM free. I note some of the passionate anti DRMists are also devoted followers of Baen. They're kind of invested in Baen's success and they share the whole" everything should be TOTALLY open" ethos. I bet their Android and Linux enthusiasts as well.
A big publishing company, with many lines of books, has different interests and must take a different approach. I didn't think a single one of Elfmark and Xenophon's choices were for general nonfiction or general fiction-the two biggest categories of books published out there.

You know what? SCREW YOU. You sit here and smugly call people names and then try to act like you are on the side of “good and justice.” I would bet that YOU have more pirated works than anybody on this thread and you’re talking out of guilt. You “doth protest too much, methinks.”

Time after time people are telling you that THEY DO NOT WANT TO SHARE THEIR BOOKS WITH THE WORLD and yet you keep coming back with the same You keep proclaiming that authors aren’t going to write books…well they can STOP and find a full time job. I don’t give a good damn. I can live just fine without their crap and keep my hard earned money in my pocket. You don’t get it, do you?? There are NO AUTHORS without readers and you, my friend, turn my stomach.

I have spent over $300 on books this calendar year and you know what?? If some stupid publisher or author didn’t get my money cause they don’t get the message – well it’s their loss, not mine.

I am SICK TO DEATH of people like YOU calling me a thief because I want the ability to use the items that I PAY FOR as I SEE FIT. If you are so concerned about the pirating, keep your damn manuscript in the damn drawer! I’ve lost thousands of dollars in .LIT books and I refuse to keep losing more. I don’t steal/pirate/whatever ebooks. I don’t need to. I have a damn good job and I can spend my money in whatever manner I please. And I please to spend my money with the companies who actually value me as a customer. If you had a publishing company, you’d never see a DIME of my money. And if I ever find out who you are and that you are part of a publishing company or an author I support – I would stop supporting whatever it is that YOU are attached to.

[CyGuy]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

You know what? SCREW YOU. You sit here and smugly call people names and then try to act like you are on the side of “good and justice.”

Stonetools has shown that he is out of touch with reality as far as DRM and piracy goes, over and over. Very trollish if you ask me. Don't feed him if you can help it...

[Karin54]

Originally Posted by stonetools

I bet their Android and Linux enthusiasts as well.

No, I am not a fan of either Android nor Linux, just because I'm a fan of Baen.

[Karin54]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

.

I am SICK TO DEATH of people like YOU calling me a thief because I want the ability to use the items that I PAY FOR as I SEE FIT. If you are so concerned about the pirating, keep your damn manuscript in the damn drawer! I’ve lost thousands of dollars in .LIT books and I refuse to keep losing more. I don’t steal/pirate/whatever ebooks. I don’t need to. I have a damn good job and I can spend my money in whatever manner I please. And I please to spend my money with the companies who actually value me as a customer. If you had a publishing company, you’d never see a DIME of my money. And if I ever find out who you are and that you are part of a publishing company or an author I support – I would stop supporting whatever it is that YOU are attached to.

Well said

[carld]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

I am SICK TO DEATH of people like YOU calling me a thief

Please quote where Stonetools called you a thief.

[NVash]

Originally Posted by MrsJoseph

You know what? SCREW YOU. You sit here and smugly call people names and then try to act like you are on the side of “good and justice.” I would bet that YOU have more pirated works than anybody on this thread and you’re talking out of guilt. You “doth protest too much, methinks.”

Great post. I dont know if its being ignored or what but I stated the very same thing myself earlier on. Not everyone is trying to steal something and even honest people are getting ripped off with DRM.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by carld

Please quote where Stonetools called you a thief.

Here's one:

Originally Posted by stonetools

DRM is a tool to protect copyright. You break DRM precisely because you want to violate the authors copyright by making unauthorized copies and forwarding them to other people, for what you -not the author-consider good and sufficient reasons. Tap dance all you like, accuse me of what you will, but violating the author's copyright is what you are doing.

But in fairness, he did recant that one later.