There's a better way to beat the ebook pirates

[TenaciousBadger]

Originally Posted by tubemonkey

No, it's a paragraph disguised as a sentence.

Or a sentence disguised as a paragraph

Originally Posted by Nyssa

It sure seems that way. I stopped reading when I ran out of breath.

I went on and on and on and...

@dippybird: brevity is the mother of getting your posts read. ah, and punctuation marks!

[ApK]

Originally Posted by kennyc

Do you want to discuss piracy or copyright?

We're discussing copyright piracy (as opposed to piracy of ships at sea).
This was the reason for my 'welcome to the discussion' line earlier.
They are not separate issues.

The simple answer to twowheels is:
"Copyright law allows for it, it's not a fringe case, it's copyrighted, so sharing it without permission is against the law. End of story."

The slightly longer answer is, if you feel the copyright law is doing society a disservice there, work to reform the law. I'm all for that.
There is also a less clear (to me, as I'm not an IP expert) issue concerning orphaned works, works where there is no way to determine who to ask for permissions, but I don't think that's an issue for Mark Twain's works.

On the other hand, Mark Twain, in his own copyright reform advocacy, said something like he wanted to protect his copyright for himself and his children. His grandchildren 'could fend for themselves.'
So maybe he meant to release his works to the public domain after his children passed....?

[Nyssa]

Originally Posted by ApK

<snip>
There is also a less clear (to me, as I'm not an IP expert) issue concerning orphaned works, works where there is no way to determine who to ask for permissions, but I don't think that's an issue for Mark Twain's works.

On the other hand, Mark Twain, in his own copyright reform advocacy, said something like he wanted to protect his copyright for himself and his children. His grandchildren 'could fend for themselves.'
So maybe he meant to release his works to the public domain after his children passed....?

That's what it sounds like to me. Makes sense. As parents we try to do our best for our children, and hopefully teach them to do the best for their children, etc. Of course, if we happen to do well enough to help our grandchildren as well, then Yay!

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by Karin54

You really make me very angry, when you write that. I DO NOT want to share my ebooks (and I've bought all of them) with anyone (they can buy their own). I just want to be sure, that I have a copy available, if for some reason, my ebookreader gives out or I can't access my backlog catalog because of changed format or GEO restrictions.

Authors everywhere bless you for saying that you buy your ebooks and don't want to share them with all and sundry. You will note that there are many on this thread who do assert that they should be able to freely copy and share their ebooks with others. (Indeed, a few seem to be in favor of pirates who want to anonymously share ebooks in their possession with everybody). Curiously, you did not feel it necessary to respond to those people.
In any case, my argument was directed to one person. I thought that was obvious from the context. Sorry if you misunderstood that.
The major booksellers ( Apple, Amazon, B&N, Kobo, Sony) have all established systems for backing up and archiving your purchases-systems far more elaborate and powerful than that available to the average consumer. It is far more likely that your house would burn down, taking your computer and backups, than that Amazon servers will fail.
Geographical restrictions prevent purchases: they don't affect books already purchased, AFAIK.
Format changes have been a problem for buyers of electronic media since there was such a thing as consumer electronics. ( Ask anyone who bought an album in 8 track format or a movie in Betamax format). DRM is tangential to the format change issue. Indeed, it is quite possible that your Non-DRMED ebooks may not be readable on some future ebook reader.
In making these points, I don't dismiss your concerns: they are real. But your concerns should be balanced against the the right of the creators of the ebooks that you enjoy to preserve and protect their intellectual property. If they can't do that, then they won't create any more ebooks. When you chafe at these restrictions, think of whether you would prefer no restrictions and no future ebooks from a favorite author.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by stonetools

The major booksellers ( Apple, Amazon, B&N, Kobo, Sony) have all established systems for backing up and archiving your purchases-systems far more elaborate and powerful than that available to the average consumer.

If the book is removed from their sales offerings, it may or may not remain available for download.

Geographical restrictions prevent purchases: they don't affect books already purchased, AFAIK.

Geographic restrictions can be added after purchase, preventing further downloads. This happened at Fictionwise. When the book's contract changes, the previous publisher may no longer be legally able to offer it--and ebook stores, despite their promises of permanent access to one's purchased libraries, have been very erratic about providing that. They don't host the books themselves; they contract with the publishers & DRM server hosts to process the books anew every time the buyer wants to download it. If that title is no longer available through that publisher, or that DRM host has changed systems, the book is no longer available.

DRM'd ebooks from Rocketbook and EBookwise are no longer available, and can't be converted to new devices. LIT books from Microsoft may no longer be available, if you don't have access to the account used to purchase them.

Indeed, it is quite possible that your Non-DRMED ebooks may not be readable on some future ebook reader.

A diligent reader can convert non-DRM'd ebooks to whatever the new, trendy format is, to make sure it's still readable. And even without much diligence, txt remains a viable backup format for long-term storage. Neither of those options exists with DRM.

In making these points, I don't dismiss your concerns: they are real. But your concerns should be balanced against the the right of the creators of the ebooks that you enjoy to preserve and protect their intellectual property.

The creator has no right to control how their books are read, only how they are copied. Their right to "protect their intellectual property" doesn't include a right to restrict its use to recent buyers only, and keep it away from those who bought it two Windows updates ago.

If they can't do that, then they won't create any more ebooks. When you chafe at these restrictions, think of whether you would prefer no restrictions and no future ebooks from a favorite author.

My favorite authors tend to release books without DRM; apparently, they don't think that your concerns are important. If every DRM-infected ebook vanished from the market, it wouldn't change my reading habits. So I'm not concerned with what protection they think they're getting from DRM; they've already decided they don't want my money.

I'm pretty sure the literary world could survive losing those few authors who'd refuse to publish if they couldn't lock readers into a single program. Other authors would realize they just have to convince people to buy their books instead of swapping them around... which, apparently, is working out okay for dozens of ebook companies.

If lack of DRM causes widespread casual sharing, why isn't Baen bankrupt? Sure, they're a niche market--but why hasn't that niche been filled with free pirate books?

Where is your evidence that dropping DRM causes less sales? Every company that's done it, has reported an increase in sales.

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by ApK

.
This was the reason for my 'welcome to the discussion' line earlier.
They are not separate issues.
..

They are VERY DIFFERENT ISSUES and this discussion per the subject is about PIRATES!

[ApK]

Originally Posted by kennyc

They are VERY DIFFERENT ISSUES and this discussion per the subject is about PIRATES!

These pirates are people who violate copyright.
Perceived intrinsic wrongs about copyright are part of their motivation.
Reform of copyright law is one of the possible solutions.
Why do you see it as different issues?

ApK

[kennyc]

Originally Posted by ApK

These pirates are people who violate copyright.
Perceived intrinsic wrongs about copyright are part of their motivation.
Reform of copyright law is one of the possible solutions.
Why do you see it as different issues?

ApK

That's not necessarily true. They(pirates) couldn't care less about copyright, it doesn't even enter into the conversation.

On the other hand the terms and different laws of copyright for different countries, media, etc. are a topic often at odds itself. Many think it should be changed (e.g. not allowing corporations to hold copyrights).

Thus my statement that they are different things. This thread is about Pirates, not about copyright.

[stonetools]

If the book is removed from their sales offerings, it may or may not remain available for download.

And books go out of print all the time. Are you asserting some universal right to download any ebook ever offered for sale?

Geographic restrictions can be added after purchase, preventing further downloads. This happened at Fictionwise. When the book's contract changes, the previous publisher may no longer be legally able to offer it--and ebook stores, despite their promises of permanent access to one's purchased libraries, have been very erratic about providing that

didn't know that. Sounds like the rare case to me, though. You don't invalidate general systems because of the rare case. More on that anon. In case of geo restrictions, you should understand that the creator of the work has the right to decide when and where his work should be offered for sale. The anti DRMists seem to believe that this right should be overriden by fiat. Legally, however, such rights have to be negotiated, author by author, and publisher by publisher. Such things may take time, but that's how WE would want it if those were our rights. In any case, I think that georestrctions are an anachronism that will disappear as ebooks become more important.

DRM'd ebooks from Rocketbook and EBookwise are no longer available, and can't be converted to new devices. LIT books from Microsoft may no longer be available, if you don't have access to the account used to purchase them.

As I have said above, it may be legit to strip DRM in cases where the company goes out of business, on a couple of different legal theories. This is again the exceptional case that doesn't invalidate the rule.

A diligent reader can convert non-DRM'd ebooks to whatever the new, trendy format is, to make sure it's still readable. And even without much diligence, txt remains a viable backup format for long-term storage. Neither of those options exists with DRM.

Actually, you don't know this. We simply don't know where the technology will go. It may go to a place where where DRM and non DRM files will be unplayable in the preferred media player of the future. It has happened in the past and will likely happen again.

The creator has no right to control how their books are read, only how they are copied. Their right to "protect their intellectual property" doesn't include a right to restrict its use to recent buyers only, and keep it away from those who bought it two Windows updates ago.

The copyright law grant is quite broad. I would argue that the creator DOES technically have a right to limit to recent buyers. In any case, most creators are quite willing to allow buyers to access products that THEY HAVE BOUGHT. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, the main focus of creators is to protect their property from being pirated and casually shared in a way that dilutes the value of their work and reduces their incomes. Most authors think that the minor inconveniences that so exercise the techno-sophisticates are a small price to pay in furtherance of that end.

My favorite authors tend to release books without DRM; apparently, they don't think that your concerns are important. If every DRM-infected ebook vanished from the market, it wouldn't change my reading habits. So I'm not concerned with what protection they think they're getting from DRM; they've already decided they don't want my money.

I'm pretty sure the literary world could survive losing those few authors who'd refuse to publish if they couldn't lock readers into a single program. Other authors would realize they just have to convince people to buy their books instead of swapping them around... which, apparently, is working out okay for dozens of ebook companies.

And many, if most, bestselling authors disagree. Go through most author's forums if you doubt that.

If lack of DRM causes widespread casual sharing, why isn't Baen bankrupt?

I really don't know what Baen's finances are -perhaps you could enlighten me? Could Baen have done even better if they had been a DRM shop? Do you know for sure that their authors did not lose many sales to casual sharing and/or piracy? Is the average Baen book really as likely to be casually shared as, say, "Unbroken" or the latest Oprah's Book Club selection?
I don't know the answer to these questions, but if I was the owner of a big publishing company, I would need definitive answers before exposing my authors' IP rights in that way.
Again, I appreciate your stance. You at least are not insisting that the vast majority of authors and publishers bend to your will.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Authors everywhere bless you for saying that you buy your ebooks and don't want to share them with all and sundry. You will note that there are many on this thread who do assert that they should be able to freely copy and share their ebooks with others. (Indeed, a few seem to be in favor of pirates who want to anonymously share ebooks in their possession with everybody). Curiously, you did not feel it necessary to respond to those people.
In any case, my argument was directed to one person. I thought that was obvious from the context. Sorry if you misunderstood that.
The major booksellers ( Apple, Amazon, B&N, Kobo, Sony) have all established systems for backing up and archiving your purchases-systems far more elaborate and powerful than that available to the average consumer. It is far more likely that your house would burn down, taking your computer and backups, than that Amazon servers will fail.
Geographical restrictions prevent purchases: they don't affect books already purchased, AFAIK.
Format changes have been a problem for buyers of electronic media since there was such a thing as consumer electronics. ( Ask anyone who bought an album in 8 track format or a movie in Betamax format). DRM is tangential to the format change issue. Indeed, it is quite possible that your Non-DRMED ebooks may not be readable on some future ebook reader.
In making these points, I don't dismiss your concerns: they are real. But your concerns should be balanced against the the right of the creators of the ebooks that you enjoy to preserve and protect their intellectual property. If they can't do that, then they won't create any more ebooks. When you chafe at these restrictions, think of whether you would prefer no restrictions and no future ebooks from a favorite author.

Stonetools, my favorite authors are DEAD. They aren't creating any more books...

Examples - Mark Twain, Henry Kuttner/CL Moore, Robert Heinlein, James Branch Cabell, Mack Reynolds, Issac Asimov, Raymond Chandler, Louis L'Amour, JRR Tolkein, Theodore Sturgeon, and on, and on.....

And many of their works aren't in print either in P-book or E-book...

[Worldwalker]

Originally Posted by kennyc

... is about PIRATES!

NINJAS!

Oh, sorry, I need more sleep.

Originally Posted by stonetools

You will note that there are many on this thread who do assert that they should be able to freely copy and share their ebooks with others. (Indeed, a few seem to be in favor of pirates who want to anonymously share ebooks in their possession with everybody).

"Many" would be ... um ... one? And that one may be just trying to wind you up.

Curiously, you did not feel it necessary to respond to those people.

Most of us don't find it necessary to respond to imaginary people.

Geographical restrictions prevent purchases: they don't affect books already purchased, AFAIK.

You need to read some of the other threads here, then, because you "know" wrong.

Indeed, it is quite possible that your Non-DRMED ebooks may not be readable on some future ebook reader.

No, they won't. Epub is an open standard -- everyone knows how it works (or can, if they want to look it up). This means that it can be converted into any other format, so long as you know what a reader is looking for. That's kind of the whole point.

But your concerns should be balanced against the the right of the creators of the ebooks that you enjoy to preserve and protect their intellectual property.

DRM does not "preserve and protect" the rights of anyone. Though it does protect the self-assigned privileges of device manufacturers. (on which note, I don't think you've explained yet how I'm supposed to read .mobi-formatted books on my Sony)

If they can't do that, then they won't create any more ebooks.

So why are there so many authors out there who do not find it necessary to DRM-lock their ebooks? And why are they still writing books?

When you chafe at these restrictions, think of whether you would prefer no restrictions and no future ebooks from a favorite author.

My favorite authors were dead before you were born. I don't think they're going to be writing any more books.

You're ignoring one of the things I've said many times: I have no dog in this fight. I don't buy DRM-locked ebooks. Every last one of them could vanish off the map tomorrow without affecting me. What interest I do have is that of a content creator and rights owner -- my writing has bought my groceries in the past and no doubt will in the future. You can call me names, you can accuse me of everything and anything, but it's not convincing anyone but you.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Actually, you don't know this. We simply don't know where the technology will go. It may go to a place where where DRM and non DRM files will be unplayable in the preferred media player of the future. It has happened in the past and will likely happen again.

We know that we are wanting to, trying to, and succeeding in making sure it doesn't happen again. As I said before, we are and should be driving things toward better and easier access, not trying to preserve the mistakes and limitations of the past.

I really don't know what Baen's finances are -perhaps you could enlighten me? Could Baen have done even better if they had been a DRM shop? Do you know for sure that their authors did not lose many sales to casual sharing and/or piracy? Is the average Baen book really as likely to be casually shared as, say, "Unbroken" or the latest Oprah's Book Club selection?
I don't know the answer to these questions, but if I was the owner of a big publishing company, I would need definitive answers before exposing my authors' IP rights in that way.

I know Baen's way has attracted me as a customer. But, of course, Baen's way is legal, doing it at the authors request, with the authors EXERCISING their IP rights to participate or not.
And is SF and fantasy really a small niche? I'd have though it's probably one of the bigger and more popular genres.
ApK

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Stonetools, my favorite authors are DEAD. They aren't creating any more books...

Examples - Mark Twain, Henry Kuttner/CL Moore, Robert Heinlein, James Branch Cabell, Mack Reynolds, Issac Asimov, Raymond Chandler, Louis L'Amour, JRR Tolkein, Theodore Sturgeon, and on, and on.....

And many of their works aren't in print either in P-book or E-book...

You'll get no argument from me here. I find it absurd that works written prior to 1940 aren't in the public domain. Sign me up for a campaign to limit copyright terms to 70 years or 20 years after the death of the author, whichever comes later.

[MrsJoseph]

Originally Posted by ApK

I know Baen's way has attracted me as a customer. But, of course, Baen's way is legal, doing it at the authors request, with the authors EXERCISING their IP rights to participate or not.
And is SF and fantasy really a small niche? I'd have though it's probably one of the bigger and more popular genres.
ApK

+1

Here are some 2008 ending dollar amounts

Romance fiction: $1.37 billion in estimated revenue for 2008
Religion/inspirational: $800 million
Mystery: $668 million
Science fiction/fantasy: $551 million
Classic literary fiction: $446 million

[ApK]

Originally Posted by stonetools

You'll get no argument from me here. I find it absurd that works written prior to 1940 aren't in the public domain. Sign me up for a campaign to limit copyright terms to 70 years or 20 years after the death of the author, whichever comes later.

I was just thinking that life plus 35 would be fair. It would give ample time for any children to be well into responsible-decision-making adulthood.
I'm also seeing merit in Kenny's idea of not allowing corporations to hold copyrights, rather perhaps, there should be some sort of standard work-for-hire, exclusive license deal, sort of like giving the corporation an effective "power of attorney" over work done for them by their employees.

ApK