Vegetarian?

[DixieGal]

Originally Posted by HarryT

We apes evolved as omnivores. Personally I'm going to stick to what evolution designed us for.

Excellent summary, very succint and elegant. Meat and veggies for everyone!

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Just so the record is straight - I feel no guilt whatsoever about eating meat. My only beef (geddit ) is with people who seem to want to insist that their choice of life-style is somehow more moral than anybody elses.

And I wasn't referring to you specifically-- again, just to set the record straight.

But is it possible to evaluate a lifestyle in terms of morality? Many people do, often for reasons I have more trouble following than this one. It all depends on what you consider "moral" behavior: some culturally accepted standard like a particular interpretation of the Bible or Koran; Mill's idea that we should strive for the greatest good for the greatest number (do we count animals?); Kant's notion of universalizability (to be moral, it should be ok if everyone does it); the Buddhist notion of compassion for all things; etc.

If our definition of morality is simply "I'm not hurting anyone else," we need to consider what consequences of our actions may, in fact, be hurting someone else. Meat production produces a lot of pollution, far more than vegetable food production. (Remember, you have to include the pollution and other environmental impacts of the vegetables fed to the meat animals, too.) People live near those sources of pollution, and are impacted by them. Raising meat animals also uses resources that could raise larger portions of vegetable foods, and while to a certain extent hunger is a political problem (we have lots of food that just doesn't get to the people who need it), even if these political distributions could be solved, we could not sustain a meat-heavy diet for our current population. Does that mean those of us who have access to a "richer" diet should "deprive" ourselves? Does it mean we should feel an extra bit of gratitude that we are fortunate enough to have the choice of whether to be a vegetarian or not? I think these are things worth thinking about.

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by griffonwing

As a meat and potatoes person, I actually do not condemn anyone who decides not to partake. More meat and potatoes for me. But also, as a meat and potatoes guy, I have been asked by vegans "how can you", or "it's not healthy" or other such tot.

So, i think (meaning, my opinion), as a whole, vegans look down on meat-eaters more often than the other way around. And I am talking "as a whole", not singling anyone out. And this is all from my own personal experience, not based on any surveys or such.

And any such vitamins and minerals that I miss from veggies, I get with vitamin supplements.

It probably goes both ways. However being a part of a majority probably helps you not to encounter it that often, and makes it easier to shrug off.

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by HarryT

We apes evolved as omnivores. Personally I'm going to stick to what evolution designed us for.

Yes yes, but should we always do what evolution designed us for?

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by nekokami

And I wasn't referring to you specifically-- again, just to set the record straight.

But is it possible to evaluate a lifestyle in terms of morality? Many people do, often for reasons I have more trouble following than this one. It all depends on what you consider "moral" behavior: some culturally accepted standard like a particular interpretation of the Bible or Koran; Mill's idea that we should strive for the greatest good for the greatest number (do we count animals?); Kant's notion of universalizability (to be moral, it should be ok if everyone does it); the Buddhist notion of compassion for all things; etc.

If our definition of morality is simply "I'm not hurting anyone else," we need to consider what consequences of our actions may, in fact, be hurting someone else. Meat production produces a lot of pollution, far more than vegetable food production. (Remember, you have to include the pollution and other environmental impacts of the vegetables fed to the meat animals, too.) People live near those sources of pollution, and are impacted by them. Raising meat animals also uses resources that could raise larger portions of vegetable foods, and while to a certain extent hunger is a political problem (we have lots of food that just doesn't get to the people who need it), even if these political distributions could be solved, we could not sustain a meat-heavy diet for our current population. Does that mean those of us who have access to a "richer" diet should "deprive" ourselves? Does it mean we should feel an extra bit of gratitude that we are fortunate enough to have the choice of whether to be a vegetarian or not? I think these are things worth thinking about.

And there we go again with you trying to justify why a vegetarian life-style is morally 'better' than not.

It is not! Man is an omnivore and at the top of the food chain. If that fact causes people problems, then so be it, but do not try to persuade others to accept your fallacious reasoning.

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

And there we go again with you trying to justify why a vegetarian life-style is morally 'better' than not.

It is not! Man is an omnivore and at the top of the food chain. If that fact causes people problems, then so be it, but do not try to persuade others to accept your fallacious reasoning.

No, I was trying to offer some examples of how we might evaluate a lifestyle (any lifestyle) from a moral point of view. Evidently you object to anyone evaluating your choices from any point of view. If you want to clarify what parts of my reasoning you find fallacious, I would welcome that, but it seems you are satisfied with your assumption that "man is an omnivore and at the top of the food chain," so it would seem that no further discussion is possible.

I'm not a moral relativist. I don't claim to have some special access to moral truth, but I think questions of morality are important and have answers we can try to find by working together. If you don't believe that, there's really no point in us discussing this further, and I'll be happy to let it drop.

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by nekokami

No, I was trying to offer some examples of how we might evaluate a lifestyle (any lifestyle) from a moral point of view. Evidently you object to anyone evaluating your choices from any point of view. If you want to clarify what parts of my reasoning you find fallacious, I would welcome that, but it seems you are satisfied with your assumption that "man is an omnivore and at the top of the food chain," so it would seem that no further discussion is possible.

I'm not a moral relativist. I don't claim to have some special access to moral truth, but I think questions of morality are important and have answers we can try to find by working together. If you don't believe that, there's really no point in us discussing this further, and I'll be happy to let it drop.

Pretty selective examples, which all pointed one way and none of which went a jot towards understanding how any life-style may be evaluated. Just because you say that you are doing something with just an intellectual exercise in mind doesn't mean you can then have carte blanche to say anything you like.

I suppose you could say that 'man is an omnivore and at the top of the food chain' was an 'assumption', but only if 'assumption' were defined in the dictionary as 'See Fact'. I'd be fascinated to hear on what grounds anybody could possibly dispute that as a statement.

Having said all that - I fear that I, at least, am in danger of degenerating into argument rather than debate. As such, I guess it's best for me to accept that we disagree and leave it at that.

[phenomshel]

I can't be a vegetarian. I'm a native Texan, they'd revoke my citizenship! (Since I moved to Illinois they've probably already done so, but still...)

I chose the first two answers, as you can take the girl out of Texas, but you can't take the Texas out of the girl. If you offer me a steak, I'll take you up on it every time (unless it's so well done there's no recognizing it).

However, I likes me some veggies. I will eat pasta primavera happily all summer long; salads, etc. with no meat. In the summer, my meat consumption goes way down, but so does my food intake in general. I just don't like to eat much when it's hot, which I'm sure is pretty common.

[Elsi]

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

So, on balance, everybody here loves BACON, right!?

Nope. Although I still eat meat, I detest bacon. I routinely specify "no bacon" when I order salads, baked potatoes, and other dishes which are described as containing bacon.

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

Actually, I love the taste of meat. My favorite meal (if we're talking strictly about taste) is beef fajitas at one particular restaurant. If you go there with me, it is required that you sit in silence while I savor every morsel of beef that I scrape from the grill pan. Heaven!

But then there's my personal health and also the sadness I feel when I consider the animal that was raised and slaughtered solely for my personal indulgence. I can live without that (most of the time). I doubt that I could ever become a strict vegetarian and avoid all contact with animal products. I don't think it's practical for me or necessary. But I would like to reduce my meat intake to, say, a meal once or twice a week (preferably fish or poultry for health reasons). I'm getting there but I'm surrounded my meat eaters and so there's some discipline required. (Discipline? Me??)

My approach is to only eat meat when it's something that I *really* want, rather than picking meat as the default center of my meal. Right now I'm lusting after a substantial hot dog.

When I do eat meat, I'm trying to follow the recommendations of various health agencies as to portion size. I don't order the 1/2 pound burger, unless I'm planning on taking half of it home to eat later. I don't order the 12- or 16-ounce steak; instead, hubby and I will split the 8-ounce serving or we'll plan on taking home left-overs. (Actually, because steak is so easily available, it's not one of the meats that I particularly eager to get.) I keep my beef and pork portions down to about 3 ounces, and chicken and turkey somewhere in the 4 to 6 ounce range.

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

Meat has a higher nutritional value than plants.

I'm not sure I'd agree that it has a higher "value". I do accept that it has a higher nutritional density. You get more calories from smaller portions. So, for a pre-farming population, it was extremely difficult to gather enough veggies to meet the daily caloric needs. Also, meat is available in the winter where veggies and fruits may not be. We owe a lot to modern food preservation and transportation!

[vivaldirules]

Originally Posted by phenomshel

I can't be a vegetarian. I'm a native Texan, they'd revoke my citizenship!

Dang, I hadn't thought of that. (locks door and peers out window)

[disney_mommy]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

Ok, let's ask you then, what about wool? No animal was harmed in producing that. Or milk? A cow, goat or horse will always give milk if they have young, more than enough to share with us humans.

I disagree that cows are not harmed in being milked. Cows are kept indefinitely in narrow pens and hooked up to IV's where they are fed intravenous hormones to keep them producing the milk long after their own calves have grown up. They are attached to cold metal machines so they can be milked often every day, without stop. By drinking the milk, not only are you supporting this treatment, you are ingesting the same hormones. (Which many studies have deduced has caused adolescents to sexually mature years earlier than our ancestors.)

Originally Posted by griffonwing

Oooooh, I sense a battle of wits coming! I hope the combatants come armed!

I am not here for battle. I was asked to share my opinion and I did. I think we can all have a nice adult conversation without it turning into name calling and taunts.

Originally Posted by griffonwing

I think both sides have their negative impacts.

ANIMALS
Yes, some/many/most of the huge meat farms don't give a toss about the care of the animal in question. After all, they will soon be out of their misery, and in my casserole dish, so really, what should it matter? I'm sure this is the point of view of most people in the trade, from chicken farms, to turkey farms, to cattle farms. They raise animals solely to use for food.

Since they will soon be out of their misery, it's okay to treat them however you see fit until then? That seems to me a mentality more fit for a serial killer.

Originally Posted by griffonwing

VEGGIES
Think about the farms. All of the pesticides needed for the vast acres and acres of grain, corn, tomoatoes, and other veggies, and fruit orchards . All of this DDT and other pesticides get into the ground, in the water tables and can eventually get into your drinking water. Especially if you live near a farm and you have a well. At any rate, it's worse for the environment and land than the treatment of the animals.

Who says we have to use all of these pesticides? There are thousands of farms out there that use natural, non-chemical, ways to treat pests. It's called organic farming. Sure, it costs a little extra, but I think it's worth it to keep crap like that out of my body.

Originally Posted by griffonwing

As far as treatment, I don't think you can put us (meat-eaters) in the same category as those who actually do the raising/shearing/slaughtering. Yes, we partake, so we encourage the slaughter of the animals for use in our casseroles. But your partaking of the veggies also encourage the use of DDT and other nasty pesticides that can kill natural wildlife.

So really, it's lose/lose, no matter what type of food you eat. Animal or vegetable, we all do our part.

Again, by my partaking in buying only organic fruits and vegetables, I abolutely do not encourage the use of chemical pesticides. And because I choose not to fill my body with the decaying flesh of rotting animals, I do not have anything to do with the cruel mistreatment of animals.

Originally Posted by Icarusbop

Everyone is entitled to their opinions, but I don't 'get' vegetarians at all.

Nor do I understand what would posess someone to eat something that had parents, internal organs, instincts and feelings. Why not dogs and cats? Babies and small children?

Originally Posted by Icarusbop

Rubbish, we are designed to eat meat, hence the canine teeth for tearing meat.

The canine teeth are vestiges of our past when our only options were to kill wild animals to get our nourishment. Before we evolved and learn to farm and garden.

You'll notice that you have quite a few more flat, broad teeth to chew, grind and crush coarser food like root vegetables and nuts.

Originally Posted by Icarusbop

Moral ground: There isn't any really, animals are there to be eaten ( 'if we aren't supposed to eat animals why are they made out of meat?') I'm prettry certain Lions or(insert big predator of your choice here) doesn't go on much of a guilt trip when they get to eat people... - sure it would be nice to have all the hens, sheep, pigs (etc.) running around in fields but they don't (for various reasons) and not eating meat because of it's history does not make you morally better IMO.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I don't remember the last time a lion or (insert big predator of my choice) sat down and had an intellectual conversation with someone. A lion is doing what it naturally does. Lions have no higher consciousness to guide them and so can not distinguish between right and wrong. Unlike most humans.

Originally Posted by Icarusbop

Exploiting animals: yeah well, that just tough - that happens when another organism is at the top (or very close) of the food chain. No guilt there either.

Because we humans happened to be the species that rose to the top of the food chain, that gives us carte blanche to treat those below us as we see fit? Does that work in social circles? In business? Does the supervisor not have to treat his/her underlings with respect?



Okay, please don't anybody think that I am singling you out to insult you. This kind of thing tends to get me worked up!

[vivaldirules]

Originally Posted by disney_mommy

This kind of thing tends to get me worked up!

You don't seem to be alone in that regard! As long as there's no blood shed, I won't run away either.

So, regarding recipes, I had a falafel salad at my favorite Lebanese restaurant the other day and it was so good that I thought my head was going to explode. I was in a daze so didn't examine what was in it. I only remember that it had crumbles of felafel dispersed in something like a conventional salad with greens, some tomatoes, and pickle slices. I don't recall the dressing at all. I know I could google and find a zillion recipes, but does someone here have a recipe they're fond of? Or do I need to go track one down?

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

You don't seem to be alone in that regard! As long as there's no blood shed, I won't run away either.

So, regarding recipes, I had a falafel salad at my favorite Lebanese restaurant the other day and it was so good that I thought my head was going to explode. I was in a daze so didn't examine what was in it. I only remember that it had crumbles of felafel dispersed in something like a conventional salad with greens, some tomatoes, and pickle slices. I don't recall the dressing at all. I know I could google and find a zillion recipes, but does someone here have a recipe they're fond of? Or do I need to go track one down?

Oh, felafels. Love them. I spent about 6 months in Israel in my youth and they used to have mobile felafel carts on the streets where you could buy felafels and salad in a pitta bread with a sauce for about 5 pence. Absolutely delicious. I've never managed to make them anything like as tasty myself ever since.

[griffonwing]

Actually, let me restate again, but this change the inflection.

ANIMALS
Yes, some/many/most of the huge meat farms don't give a toss about the care of the animal in question. After all, they will soon be out of their misery, and in my casserole dish, so really, what should it matter? I'm sure this is the point of view of most people in the trade, from chicken farms, to turkey farms, to cattle farms. They raise animals solely to use for food.

I never said it was how I thought, but how those in the trade might think.

Again, by my partaking in buying only organic fruits and vegetables, I abolutely do not encourage the use of chemical pesticides. And because I choose not to fill my body with the decaying flesh of rotting animals, I do not have anything to do with the cruel mistreatment of animals.

Just as there are organically 'pure', pesticide-free veggie gardens, so are there smaller, even substantial-sized, organic free-range chicken farms that do not mistreat their stock. But the doesn't mean that the other, darker side of both veggies and meat don't exist.

Sure, we can do our individual best to make sure we make choices that we can live with, but the vast majority will not care, and so the slaughterhouses and pesticides will continue. *shrug*

I won't even get into the argument you ended with, about how we 'just happened' to get to the top of the food chain. That, to me, is not even worth pursuing.

Give me a burger, fries, and let me wash it down with some sweet iced tea, and I'll be a happy camper.


PS, the battle of wits comment. You took that entirely out of context as well. I wasn't expecting an argument or tirade from anyone. It was merely a little quip meant to draw out a chuckle and to kind of nudge people against throwing a fit.

[vivaldirules]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Oh, felafels. Love them. I spent about 6 months in Israel in my youth and they used to have mobile felafel carts on the streets where you could buy felafels and salad in a pitta bread with a sauce for about 5 pence. Absolutely delicious. I've never managed to make them anything like as tasty myself ever since.

Right. I hear there's some real art in making a good felafel so I've never tried. But I can confirm that there are degrees of quality in what I've bought. Damn, now I'm hungry again and it's 4 hours until dinner.