Vegetarian?

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by Laz116

snip...
What I'm trying to say is simply: If everyone was a vegetarian there would be less suffering in the world. And I think that is quite indisputable.

..snip...

It would just be better for the world as a whole if we all were vegetarians.

Just don't see it I'm afraid. In what way is it indisputable (especially given that I'm disputing it!)? How would the world be a better place if we were all vegetarians?

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Laz116

When that is said I think it is fair to say that the average vegetarian is probably eating healthier than the average meat-eater. Partly because he/she has to think about stuff like protein-sources and thus is conscious about what she eat, partly because we meat eaters in general eat far to few vegetables and far to much meat.

I think you need to find a middle way. I love (most) vegetables but I also love (most) meat sources. But if I had the money, I'd eat way more fish. Fish is very healthy but also very expensive to eat every day...


I can believe people if they say they are vegetarian because they don't like meat, or they don't want to eat something with a face (as Z said, I believe), or any other personal reason. But not if they are because it's supposedly healthier. The verdict is still out on that one. We've been meat eaters from almost the start of our carrier as humans (everything points in that direction, our teeth, our gut, our stomach) so it can't be that unheallthy...

[HappyMartin]

If God didn't want us to eat animals why did he make them out of meat?

Just kidding, my wife and I are both vegetarians. Not easy in South Africa I can tell you. You would think we were admitting to cannibalism the reaction we get at times.

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Just don't see it I'm afraid. In what way is it indisputable (especially given that I'm disputing it!)? How would the world be a better place if we were all vegetarians?

A couple of examples:

It takes less energy to feed a person on vegetables than on meat, thus you can feed more people on the same amount of resources, if we all lived as vegetarians. And lack of food resources is a growing problem (overpopulation etc.).

Fewer animals would suffer if we didn't eat them.

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

I think you need to find a middle way. I love (most) vegetables but I also love (most) meat sources. But if I had the money, I'd eat way more fish. Fish is very healthy but also very expensive to eat every day...


I can believe people if they say they are vegetarian because they don't like meat, or they don't want to eat something with a face (as Z said, I believe), or any other personal reason. But not if they are because it's supposedly healthier. The verdict is still out on that one. We've been meat eaters from almost the start of our carrier as humans (everything points in that direction, our teeth, our gut, our stomach) so it can't be that unheallthy...

The middle way is definitely fine with me, since I'm trying to walk it myself. About us being meat eaters from the start of our carrier as humans, I think there are wild discussions about that. Our teeth does not point entirely in that direction as far as I know (but I know little of biology). Anyway I don't think it's very interesting whether we were "meant" to eat meat or not. I am more interested in whether meat eaters live longer and healthier lives than vegetarians. My guess is quite they don't. Could they live longer and healthier than vegetarians. Perhaps.

But if the average meat-eater became a vegetarian, I'd wager that he/she became healthier.

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by Laz116

A couple of examples:

It takes less energy to feed a person on vegetables than on meat, thus you can feed more people on the same amount of resources, if we all lived as vegetarians. And lack of food resources is a growing problem (overpopulation etc.).

Fewer animals would suffer if we didn't eat them.

Yes of course. Because we'll just let all the little piggies and cows and sheep free to roam and enjoy themselves - as opposed to just slaughtering the lot of them as they are no longer of any use to us.

[Laz116]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Yes of course. Because we'll just let all the little piggies and cows and sheep free to roam and enjoy themselves - as opposed to just slaughtering the lot of them as they are no longer of any use to us.

I suppose we would breed fewer animals.

But since you didn't comment on the food resource argument I take it that you now accept that it is easier to feed the world if everyone was vegetarians and thus we would ease suffering.

[HappyMartin]

[QUOTE=Laz116;502574
But if the average meat-eater became a vegetarian, I'd wager that he/she became healthier.[/QUOTE]

I was turned down by 2 life insurance companies 10 years ago because my cholesterol was extremely high. Ten years on a vegetarian diet with no alcohol and my cholesterol is normal and I now have a life and income protection policy. That is good enough evidence for me. Oh yes, and with no cholesterol lowering medication.

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by Laz116

But since you didn't comment on the food resource argument I take it that you now accept that it is easier to feed the world if everyone was vegetarians and thus we would ease suffering.

Well, no, actually. I just don't have any evidence to support the argument either way so I didn't want to make any unsubstantiated claims.

[Sparrow]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

Yes of course. Because we'll just let all the little piggies and cows and sheep free to roam and enjoy themselves - as opposed to just slaughtering the lot of them as they are no longer of any use to us.

Even if you slaughtered the entire current generation (and thereby caused suffering) - it would prevent the suffering of countless future generations (thereby lessening suffering overall).

Although another way would be to care for the current generation compassionately, but prevent them breeding.

[vivaldirules]

So, on balance, everybody here loves BACON, right!?

Actually, I love the taste of meat. My favorite meal (if we're talking strictly about taste) is beef fajitas at one particular restaurant. If you go there with me, it is required that you sit in silence while I savor every morsel of beef that I scrape from the grill pan. Heaven!

But then there's my personal health and also the sadness I feel when I consider the animal that was raised and slaughtered solely for my personal indulgence. I can live without that (most of the time). I doubt that I could ever become a strict vegetarian and avoid all contact with animal products. I don't think it's practical for me or necessary. But I would like to reduce my meat intake to, say, a meal once or twice a week (preferably fish or poultry for health reasons). I'm getting there but I'm surrounded my meat eaters and so there's some discipline required. (Discipline? Me??)

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by Sparrow

Even if you slaughtered the entire current generation (and thereby caused suffering) - it would prevent the suffering of countless future generations (thereby lessening suffering overall).

Although another way would be to care for the current generation compassionately, but prevent them breeding.

What future generations? There are huge numbers of species who exist only in captivity to feed us (ever seen a wild Fresian cow?). We can't just let them all go, because then they'd eat all that extra veg we're growing to feed the world.

In short, the whole world being vegetarian means that many species of animal will be made extinct, surely?

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Laz116

The middle way is definitely fine with me, since I'm trying to walk it myself. About us being meat eaters from the start of our carrier as humans, I think there are wild discussions about that. Our teeth does not point entirely in that direction as far as I know (but I know little of biology). Anyway I don't think it's very interesting whether we were "meant" to eat meat or not. I am more interested in whether meat eaters live longer and healthier lives than vegetarians. My guess is quite they don't. Could they live longer and healthier than vegetarians. Perhaps.

Meat has a higher nutritional value than plants. Just because humans started to eat meat, they started to make tools (to hunt the animals, instead of only scavenging them) and they had to start cooperating to hunt the animals down (if you wanted more than rabbits). These things increased the brain size and thus intelligence of early man.

About our guts, ever seen a pure plant eater? Ever seen the bellies on those animals? Our bodies aren't designed to extract as much nutrition as possible from vegetables. But they are also not designed to for pure meat either. Which, in my eyes, is enough evidence that we are not supposed to be vegetarians by nature.

Now, some people may profit by it, as HappyMartin apparently does, or people may feel uncomfortable by eating something that came from a walking entity (plants do live too, you know), but don't tell me we're made vegetarians, because we aren't.

But most importantly, let the people who like to eat meat do what they want and let the people who don't also do what they want.

I do agree that bio-industry should become more animal friendly though. Animals have a right to go outside and smell the wind too. Luckily, farmers around here are finally seeing the light... (slowly, but they are farmers, so we don't expect them to change over-night )

[Sweetpea]

Originally Posted by Bilbo1967

What future generations? There are huge numbers of species who exist only in captivity to feed us (ever seen a wild Fresian cow?). We can't just let them all go, because then they'd eat all that extra veg we're growing to feed the world.

In short, the whole world being vegetarian means that many species of animal will be made extinct, surely?

No, they'd become extinct if we all be became vegan. But cows would still be needed for the milk. And chicken for the eggs. And sheep for the wool.

And Sparrow, you also make sure you clothes don't contain leather or wool? Because leather is a by-product of the meat industry...

[Bilbo1967]

Originally Posted by Sweetpea

No, they'd become extinct if we all be became vegan. But cows would still be needed for the milk. And chicken for the eggs. And sheep for the wool.

And Sparrow, you also make sure you clothes don't contain leather or wool? Because leather is a by-product of the meat industry...

Yes, good point Gotta feel sorry for the pigs though

Does mean though, that we still need to take a lot of resource to look after these animals - therefore not freeing that up for crop production? Also, when they do die (presumably from an overdose of sheer joy) we can't eat them, therefore effectively wasting even more resources.

On the up side though, it would put McDonalds out of business