There's a better way to beat the ebook pirates

[stonetools]

Originally Posted by Piper_

Indeed, but the same goes for respecting the reality of what a person actually says rather than an "adjusting" it in an effort to prove something else.

He, like most others here, are saying the equivalent of, "You could lose most of that fat you bemoan if you cut out your daily burgers, fries, and milkshakes."

The truth and value of that advice is not disproved, nor is continued indulgence justified, by the existence of some people with extra pounds who don't eat those things.


As noted last weekend, every time we present a better way to protect (include the purchaser's receipt information in the ebook's metadata/jacket), all we get is crickets. ...until days or weeks later, when we see you on another thread repeating the accusations that we "digirati" don't care about authors and have no better ideas than DRM.

Why is that? Can you at least tell us why our idea meets with such silence? I've posted my suspicions a couple of times, but to be fair, I would like to hear your explanation.

I didn't respond because Elfmark did it as well or better than I could. I'll just quote her again:

There are ways to discourage widespread sharing, which may-or-may-not be considered DRM. Placing the buyer's name & account number in the ebook might be considered DRM, but these days, we mostly think DRM means "software that prevents an unauthorized person from opening it," not "any measure designed to protect IP rights."

Anything that doesn't prevent opening or editing the file could be changed. Name, email & account # can be stripped out of ebooks for widespread sharing--however, since most people aren't interested in uploading their purchases to the torrents, most people wouldn't bother stripping out that info before giving a copy to a relative. Casual sharing would almost certainly increase if the current DRM schemes were dropped for something less invasive. (Stonetools thinks this would expand to "send a copy to my 500 facebook friends;" the rest of us think that the lack of this practice for Baen and similar ebooks means it's not likely.

In other words, your DRM scheme would be less effective than the current scheme for publishers. Authors and publishers are interested in a DRM scheme that prevents casual sharers from easily violating an author's copyright: your scheme would do nothing to prevent this. Someone who got their free copy of an ebook forwarded from your relative would just look at the info and say " Wow, Piper originally bought this. Good to know" and just continue reading their free book. And do publishers want the liability hassle of including a book buyer's bank account number on a file that can be passed around the Internet? I think they'll stick with the present scheme, thank you.

[Giggleton]

Originally Posted by Fayth

Good luck cracking down on a hub that is within a country without any anti piracy laws. The most notable torrent sites aren't run in the US you know.

Don't forget the space pirates.

[OtterBooks]

some day we'll find it, the rainbow connection; the lovers, the dreamers, and meeeee.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by stonetools

People go to pirate sites because its easy and it doesn't cost them anything. Make it hard to get to the pirate sites (IOW, ENFORCE the law) and people will pay for things they want to enjoy.

Do you have evidence for this?

75% of readers, before ebooks, never contributed to the authors' revenue stream. What makes you think that "get rid of pirate ebooks" will turn those people into ebook customers instead of RSS feed readers? What makes you think they'll buy ebooks from those authors instead of downloading freebies from someone else?

If "free" is what's important to them, no amount of anti-piracy measures will affect them. If they were looking for a particular book, or books by a particular author, and free is not an option--they'll still compare price & convenience against other forms of entertainment.

If you make it easy to pirate or casually share, people will do that a lot.

Which is why Baen went bankrupt about 8 years ago. Oh, wait ...

Let's also squelch the dumbest argument, trotted out repeatedly in these discussions-that if anti-piracy measures don't work perfectly to stop ALL piracy, they shouldn't be attempted at all. Let's try that argument on for size with other crimes.

Laws against murder haven't stopped all murders, so let's do away with homicide laws
Locks don't stop all burglaries, so let's dispense with locks
Anti-fraud laws haven't stopped all fraud, so let's stop enforcing anti-fraud laws.

Anti-piracy measures are a fine thing even if they're not 100% effective. DRM is not. DRM is like a lock on my home that the builder gets to keep. The builder doesn't have the right to attempt to prevent burglary of my home.

The issue isn't that "publishers shouldn't try to stop piracy." The issue is that publishers are ignoring *many* ways to gain customers in favor of "anti-piracy" measures.

We're kinda baffled, because there's no "# of pirates prevented" line on authors' royalty statements. And publishers haven't shown any ability to convert former pirates into paying customers, instead of either someone else's leeches, or someone else's paying customers.

If they were farmers, they'd be building elaborate scarecrows and electrified fences and developing toxic bug sprays to stop predators from eating their crops... and not bothering to water the plants.

They're trying VERY VERY HARD to prevent unauthorized readers, and not putting much effort at all into gaining new customers. They're not willing to proofread their releases; they won't release complete sets of backlist series; they won't allow worldwide sales; they require sometimes-complex software hassles to read the books; they don't price books where customer expectations are.

And they're welcome to keep doing all that... I'll keep buying from Smashwords. (Where the books are often not proofread, but at least I'm not paying $10 for something riddled with OCR errors and 4 em epub margins. For $2, I'm much more tolerant of lack of editing, as long as it doesn't throw me out of the book.)

If the mainstream "big six" publishers want to survive, they'll need to figure out to get customers, not how to "stop pirates." They don't make money stopping pirates.

[stonetools]

Hey, Elfmark, welcome, I just quoted you. I didn't want to get into the DRM debate again because its been done and done. My intervention here was to support Mr. Jordan who explained that he stopped writing because he was tired of being ripped off by pirates. The forum's response was to attack the author. Apparently the author's reason contradicted the provision in the MR creed that piracy never hurts an author and is either neutral or entirely benign.They went on to describe the author as a quitter, a whiner, a liar, etc, etc. I felt this was unfair, so I took time off from lobbying for Apple, Amazon, Google, the publishers , etc. to help him out
Anyway, I think my work is done here. I will say that yet again, you and others are misrepresenting DRM as being anti-piracy, rather than anti-casual sharing. But then, I don't want to start that up again. Good night and good luck.

[Piper_]

Originally Posted by stonetools

I didn't respond because Elfmark did it as well or better than I could. I'll just quote her again:



In other words, your DRM scheme would be less effective than the current scheme for publishers. Authors and publishers are interested in a DRM scheme that prevents casual sharers from easily violating an author's copyright: your scheme would do nothing to prevent this. Someone who got their free copy of an ebook forwarded from your relative would just look at the info and say " Wow, Piper originally bought this. Good to know" and just continue reading their free book. And do publishers want the liability hassle of including a book buyer's bank account number on a file that can be passed around the Internet? I think they'll stick with the present scheme, thank you.

Thank you. That is just what I expected and said would be the reason from the beginning.

The problem is that it contradicts all your previous assertions that all you want to stop is "heavy" and "large scale" casual sharing, citing people putting their books up for "hundreds" to share on Facebook and the like.

If that were true, then our method would be enough. No, it wouldn't prevent pirates or anyone else who wants to just strip it, but neither does yours.

All our method would allow that yours doesn't is multi-device compatibility and sharing between trusted friends and family, which you said was not the big concern.

Of course, it also would mean people wouldn't have to pay for another copy of an ebook - what you kindly call a "stupid tax" - if they don't have or always buy DRM-compatible devices.

(The bank account scare you used is just desperation speaking. There's no need for that info to be in there. :P)

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

If the mainstream "big six" publishers want to survive, they'll need to figure out to get customers, not how to "stop pirates." They don't make money stopping pirates.

The music and entertainment industry have found suing pirates en-masse to be another surefire, quickie method of making more money. Hence the "75 trillion dollars" attempt by MPAA suing Limewire.

Being so short sighted and arrogant, they have not yet realised that the customer base is reducing considerably and the market evolving in another, directly opposite direction to where their stagnant business model lies.

Unfortunately it appears that the publishing industry (agency 6) is managed by the same evolutionary dead end.

[stonetools]

If that were true, then our method would be enough. No, it wouldn't prevent pirates or anyone else who wants to just strip it, but neither does yours.

How would your method prevent that? You just attach the file and off it goes to your email distribution list. It would be just as simple as forwarding a blog post or newspaper article-something that's done a jillion times a day on the Internet.

All our method would allow that yours doesn't is multi-device compatibility and sharing between trusted friends and family, which you said was not the big concern.

Of course, it also would mean people wouldn't have to pay for another copy of an ebook - what you kindly call a "stupid tax" - if they don't have or always buy DRM-compatible devices.

Oh, you are on about the " stupid tax" comment-an insult to a hypothetical family? Come on, now...

Look, the mythical Multidevices family never heard of the possibility of device incompatibility? Did they fall asleep in a cave only to wake up and just start buying dedicated devices? Because that's what would have had to happen if they had never heard of device incompatibility. In the world of consumer electronics, incompatibility isn't the exception: its the rule. Let's review:
In the 1970s, there were three incompatible forms of recorded music playing devices: vinyl, mini-cassette, and 8 track tape. And if you bought 8 track tape, you were SOL a few years later when manufacturers stopped making 8 track tape devices.
Then there were the Sony Betamex vs VHS conflict-ever heard of that?
Later on, there was Windows vs Macintosh .
Fast forward to today. The average user understands that Android programs don't run on IOS devices and vice versa. They understand neither Android or IOS programs run on Blackberries, and Windows Phone 7 is a whole nother family of incompatible devices. The hundreds of millions of people who have bought these devices are well aware of device incompatibility. And this is not even talking game consoles!
Faced with incompatibility on every hand, its hard not to describe the Multidevices as well-incredibly naive if not stupid, not to even consider incompatibility in buying three different devices-one of which is a SONY device!
The average user will understand that a device branded the AMAZON Kindle is meant for reading Amazon books, whereas another device called the BARNES AND NOBLE Nook is probably meant for reading Nook books. If they DIDN'T grasp that, then talking to a sales person, doing a minute's research on the Internet, or reading the manual would have cleared things up . That's why I don't believe in the mythical Multidevices family. No one is THAT clueless.
The plain and simple fact of the matter is that , with a little foresight, sharing a library among one family is rather simple-you standardize on one type device and share one account among up to 6 devices. you may have a problem sharing with third cousins, but then you recommend books to those.
In fact, Piper, what you really want to do is to make copies of an ebook you buy and mail it to your family members . Well, that's a violation of the author's intellectual property rights and a federal offense. If the publishers removed DRM, they would just make it easy for you to do that and even (you could tell yourself) give you PERMISSION to violate the author's copyright. Well, you can't really fault the publishers for not making it THAT easy for you.

[Anke Wehner]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Let me put it bluntly. Its damn easy to buy an ebook

In my experience, it's often damn tricky.

First you have to do your research on formats, so you don't accidentally buy from a shop that'll leave you with a book you can't read on your device. (splits mostly down to "amazon" vs "everybody else", but it's still something you need to know about beforehand, or you run into problems.)
Then you need to find a shop that will actually sell a compatible format to you, rather than - probably after you signed up, picked a book or three and try to check out - telling you you are in the wrong country to buy. (You probably also need a credit card, which most people I know don't. I got one specifically for international orders.)

At least those things need to be done only once.

Repeat for each book I hear about and want to buy:
Hope that the book is available digitally at all.
Hope that the book is available in one of the few shops that sell to me.
Hope that the individual book is not georestricted.

If you're lucky, maybe a book is georestricted, but does show up in a shop that doesn't check your location too carefully, so you can buy it with a forwarding address in the USA.

I saw a few days ago that a new book my Jonathan Stroud is out. I haven't found it anywhere but at Amazon and Waterstones. My ereader doesn't understand Amazon format, and while I probably could strip the DRM and convert the book (which AFAIK is illegal, too), I don't want to give them money because of their format policies. Waterstones won't let me buy the epub because I'm not in the UK.
I've written to the author, and hope it's just a matter of it taking a little time before the epub file will be available on Kobo or bookdepository - since Amazon would sell it to me, it's apparently not a matter of the contracts prohibiting selling it to someone in Germany.

I didn't keep an exact tally, but I think of the books I wanted to buy from traditional publishing houses about one in eight I could not buy due to regional restrictions of some kind.

[HansTWN]

Well, publisher stonetools, keep ignoring your biggest customers and keep on kicking them in their behinds while you enjoy the current windfall brought about by new e-reading devices and new customers who still have no idea what they are getting into (they will find out very, very soon). That seems to give you the impression that you are on the right track. That is just a streak of good luck --- not your business sense.

Better start planning for the future -- successful businesses listen to their customers, they don't try to placate them with empty phrases.

[Paulinafrica]

Originally Posted by Quexos

I began looking around the darknet ... (is torrent part of the darknet ?)

Yes, it most certainly is.

Originally Posted by Quexos

Anyways the reason why I got them on the darknet is exactly because of the annoying restrictions and geographical unavailability to which you add the errors that litter most ebooks. The first time I tried to buy an ebook, the "sorry this product is available in the USA and Canada only" was a shock and that was the moment I began looking around the darknet ... (is torrent part of the darknet ?)
The worst is to know that officially most ebooks I want to have I cannot buy. For example, The Lord of the Rings ebook is unavailable in English where I live. I am simply not legally allowed to buy it (and thus to read it), can you believe that ? Who the hell do they think they are to tell me I cannot read a certain book in English. Actually it's not even available in my language though I'm sure it will be eventually but I cannot read it in English, they tell ME I cannot read it in English. Well ladies and gentlemen of the publishing industry, guess what ? you don't control my life at least not to that extent.

Spot on!
Cheers
Paul

[caleb72]

Originally Posted by OtterBooks

some day we'll find it, the rainbow connection; the lovers, the dreamers, and meeeee.

Here - have some karma.

[boxcorner]

Originally Posted by stonetools

I think that most people here seem to object to publishers taking ANY anti-piracy measures. At least, when the publishers try to crack down on piracy, we are told that this is ALL they are doing, when this is not the case ...

I'm not most people (though admittedly I worked in electronic publishing before retiring), I'm a potential consumer. I understand your point of view, but I don't agree with it.

Originally Posted by stonetools

... You'd be surprised how long the arm of the US government can be, if it gets serious about piracy. And torrents can be blocked, if the ISPs are leaned on. Again, its a matter of priorities.

And I think those priorities should include keeping customers and converting prospects. What I am arguing for is putting more emphasis on the latter, and less on combating piracy. I believe that some publishers' actions are encouraging some otherwise law-abiding citizens to break laws. Paraphrasing your earlier comment about reality and beliefs, look if laws don't work, its time to adjust the laws - if business practices don't work, then it's time to change the business model. Two examples spring to mind, Amazon and library lending, plus an e-mail I've just received from Borders drawing my attention to e-books under $3 , plus free e-book previews ... QED.

[sabredog]

Originally Posted by HansTWN

Better start planning for the future -- successful businesses listen to their customers, they don't try to placate them with empty phrases.

...or put roadblocks in the way to prevent them from purchasing an ebook when the physical book is readily available to purchase, simply because they live in the wrong location. (Such restrictions should never be even included in a contractual arrangement between author and publisher).

Shifting the goal posts to suit their anachronistic method of business is going to lose more customers than they will ever gain.

[Cyberman tM]

Originally Posted by stonetools

Let me put it bluntly. Its damn easy to buy an ebook

You're in the US of A, aren't you?
What about the rest of the world? I live in Austria, Europe. Last time I tried to buy an eBook, I had to sign up with three websites until I finally found one that would take my money.
One said "Sorry, we don't sell to your region", the other simply crashed (later confirmed by support that they don't sell to that region).

Then I finally found one that sold it. Of course, infested with DRM, because I, as paying customer, am obviously a lousy criminal who needs to be restricted.
Otherwise I might - heaven forbid - read the same book on TWO devices at the same time!!1111

Yeah, it's really easy.

BTW, need I mention that the spelling mistakes from the pBook were still in, and that the formatting was lousy, and absolutey unusable for an eReader? (As in, about a third of the display was used for empty margins, leaving perhaps 5-6 words per line.)

[edit]Almost forgot one (IMO) juicy detail about that mess - the site that crashed was actually the publishers website.
So, kudos for realizing republishing an old book as eBook might attract customers. It obviously did.
But preventing people from actually buying it then surely doesn't help.
I guess they still earned money because I bought a copy of the book, but probably less than if they'd have allowed me to buy it directly...