Crazy page lengths

[Karellen]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Bu the number of screen flips depends on the size of your font, line spacing, margins and so on. It's not a fixed number.

Of course. But that only changes when _you_ change the settings which, for most people, I assume does not happen that often.

When you do change the setting, the screen refreshes, right? As part of the screen refresh, why can't the page numbers be recalculated for the increased/decreased font size/line height at the same time?

[issybird]

Originally Posted by Karellen

And by page counts I mean "screen pages" not some made up page count with a vague connection to a pbook.

And yet, I think that those who insist on screen pages, or one page per screen, are the ones forcing a connection to a pbook.

The "made-up" page count has the advantages of not changing with font size changes, of being consistent for the same book across devices, and consistent with other books in terms of objective length. But sure, let's watch that number change with each flip. And exactly why? Because it's a preference carried forward from pbooks.

Sigh.

[Karellen]

Originally Posted by issybird

Sigh.

We still need a form of conveying progress while reading. Be that either word count, page numbers or a simple progress bar.

I don't know about anybody else, but I don't change my display settings. EVER. I have found my comfortable reading settings and there is no need to change them, and I think it is safe to assume most people are the same.

And as I said in my previous post, I hate the forced connection between ebooks and pbooks for page numbers. Accurate page flips would be better as a progress indicator, while word count is better for judging the size of the book and reading duration in total.

Do many users actually fiddle with display settings while reading?

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by issybird

The "made-up" page count has the advantages of not changing with font size changes, of being consistent for the same book across devices, and consistent with other books in terms of objective length.

The same is true for page numbering based on word/character count, which Kobos unfortunately don't display (Kindles do, if you send the book from Calibre via USB). I find my custom page count actually more consistent than the Adobe one. Overall though, I care about page numbers only as the indicator for general length; I don't need them displayed while reading.

Of course this is a subject on which everyone and their brother has a firm opinion and so the argument is never going to stop.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by Karellen

I don't know about anybody else, but I don't change my display settings. EVER. I have found my comfortable reading settings and there is no need to change them, and I think it is safe to assume most people are the same.

Do many users actually fiddle with display settings while reading?

Do you edit the base font size in your ebooks? Because I'm guessing that people who don't do it need to change the font size on their ereader pretty often, as it can vary considerably between books. Also I've read that many people change the font size depending on the ambient light, the level of tiredness and so on.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by Karellen

Of course. But that only changes when _you_ change the settings which, for most people, I assume does not happen that often.

When you do change the setting, the screen refreshes, right? As part of the screen refresh, why can't the page numbers be recalculated for the increased/decreased font size/line height at the same time?

That's exactly how page numbering for kepubs behaves. But it can't be displayed in the bookstore as general information, because the number of screen flips depends on a user's individual settings.

[Karellen]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Do you edit the base font size in your ebooks? Because I'm guessing that people who don't do it need to change the font size on their ereader pretty often, as it can vary considerably between books. Also I've read that many people change the font size depending on the ambient light, the level of tiredness and so on.

My <body> tag uses "font-size: 1em;"

Hmm, never considered that ambient light could force users to change font size when you could just increase the back-lighting. I guess that is not an option for users with older readers without backlighting.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by Karellen

My <body> tag uses "font-size: 1em;"

Hmm, never considered that ambient light could force users to change font size when you could just increase the back-lighting. I guess that is not an option for users with older readers without backlighting.

Increasing the frontlight won't always help with tired eyes; it may even exacerbate the strain. It's all very subjective. I never change the font size either (I edit my ebooks), but plenty of other people do.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Quoth

I know that there are different ways of counting words, but it's more meaningful for the length of a novel than pages and the standard metric.

I think the problem is, most average readers aren't used to using word count. But we all have a vague idea of page count from years of paper books. The difference between a 318 page book and a 347 page book likely won't mean much. But '150 pages is a short book, 350 pages is an average book and +500 pages is a long book' is enough to give folks an idea.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Karellen

I struggle to understand why it is so hard for vendors to show accurate page counts on an ereader.

My experience with the Libra 2 is that the longer the chapter, the more screen flips to increase page number. The shorter the chapter, and pages are skipped - you suddenly jump from 1 of 3 to 3 of 3, with page 2 not existing.

Are you using ePubs or kepubs? Because the behavior you are describing sounds like ePub, which tries to use a fixed amount of characters to equal a page.

I use kepub and the '1 screen=1 page' is mostly accurate. It's not perfect, but for the most part, every screen flip changes the page number for me.

Of course, kepub page count would be useless in the Kobo store, where I believe they use ePub pages for length.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by issybird

And yet, I think that those who insist on screen pages, or one page per screen, are the ones forcing a connection to a pbook.

The "made-up" page count has the advantages of not changing with font size changes, of being consistent for the same book across devices, and consistent with other books in terms of objective length. But sure, let's watch that number change with each flip. And exactly why? Because it's a preference carried forward from pbooks.

That is not accurate, at least for me. Page count that you would see on Amazon or the Kobo store, yeah, a method like ePub uses is preferable.

When I'm reading the book, '1 screen=1page' does blow up the page count. I am aware of that and can live with it. For me at least, knowing the next chapter is made up of fifteen screens instead of thirty-two is handy. I always struggled trying to read ePub on a break (when time matters), because when my reader said there were two pages left in a chapter that could be anything from two to seven page turns.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Page numbers based on word/character count are just as valid. True, Kobos don't display any custom page numbers, which is a pity.

If the eBook has custom page numbers done properly, they will be displayed.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Karellen

I struggle to understand why it is so hard for vendors to show accurate page counts on an ereader.

And by page counts I mean "screen pages" not some made up page count with a vague connection to a pbook.

The screen size is fixed and known. The xhtml page for that chapter is known. Why is it so hard to calculate how many screen flips to view that entire chapter, instead of the "screen flip 3 times to increase page number" method.

My experience with the Libra 2 is that the longer the chapter, the more screen flips to increase page number. The shorter the chapter, and pages are skipped - you suddenly jump from 1 of 3 to 3 of 3, with page 2 not existing.

With ADE page numbers, page 50 is page 50 on any size screen, margins, line-height, and font. With 1 screen = 1 page, page 50 is very depended on your settings. So if we are reading the same copy of an eBook, I can say to go to page 50, you can go to the same page.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Karellen

Of course. But that only changes when _you_ change the settings which, for most people, I assume does not happen that often.

When you do change the setting, the screen refreshes, right? As part of the screen refresh, why can't the page numbers be recalculated for the increased/decreased font size/line height at the same time?

One other advantage ADE page numbers is that they take less time to calculate then KePub page numbers.

I do sometimes increase the font size if my eyes are starting to get tired when reading in bed. I do put the font size back before going to sleep.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Do you edit the base font size in your ebooks? Because I'm guessing that people who don't do it need to change the font size on their ereader pretty often, as it can vary considerably between books.

Yeah, that describes me. I give my books a cursory going over in Sigil before I send them to my Kobo, but it never occurs to me that there are still doofus publishers out there that set body size as small. Yet there are.