Best Selling Authors and Self Publishing

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

So now someone please tell me exactly how many not best selling authors are promoted to the general public?

Pretty much none? The general public reads very little and buys maybe a couple of books a year (the mentioned "Best Sellers").

[fjtorres]

Hugh Howey?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Howey

He's the guy quietly making 7 figures annually in SF all by his lonesome.
He turned down a Scalzi-class contract because it was less than he was already making.
Which is more than enough to fund an entire data center of hundreds of computers to capture and process the Author Earnings data as a public service.

Apparently he's a pretty good SF writer.
Hopefully the movie will do justice to WOOL.

As for Scalzi's much publicized deal...
http://www.thepassivevoice.com/05/20...-for-13-books/

Tor says Scalzi sells “a healthy five-figure number of his books every month.”

Let’s look at a couple of possibilities for “healthy” and see how Scalzi would do if he sold a less-than-healthy five-figure number of books every month as an indie author.

If each of Scalzi’s 13 new indie books sell 1,00o ebook copies per month, that’s a total of 13,000 copies each month. (PG’s getting better at math all the time). Again, PG would have few problems naming a significant number of indie authors with much less name recognition than Scalzi who consistently average sales of more than 1,000 copies per title each month.

To make the math easier, we’ll assume that, instead of taking the Tor contract, Scalzi indie pubs his 13 ebooks and sells them on Amazon for $2.99 each.

At 1,000 books per title per month, these sales would generate about $327,000 per year in indie royalties for Scalzi (no agent necessary). If we increased the sales of these 13 books to a more-healthy five-figure annual total based on 2,000 copies per title per month, Scalzi would be looking at $653,000 per year in royalties. And, unlike advances, which will cut off after the last book is published, that $600K+ per year won’t fall off a cliff after ten years.

Now certainly Scalzi’s indie income would start smaller and serious indie income would be back-loaded while presumably the advance income he will receive from Tor will be more front-loaded with Scalzi receiving payments from Tor before the books are sold. Performing any sort of front-loaded vs. back-loaded analysis is definitely beyond PG’s meager math skills.

Works out to be low six figures.
So yeah, Howey is in that class.

And a higher class, too.
A very gracious gent.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Hugh Howey?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Howey

He's the guy quietly making 7 figures annually in SF all by his lonesome.
He turned down a Scalzi-class contract because it was less than he was already making.
Which is more than enough to fund an entire data center of hundreds of computers to capture and process the Author Earnings data as a public service.

Apparently he's a pretty good SF writer.
Hopefully the movie will do justice to WOOL.

As for Scalzi's much publicized deal...
http://www.thepassivevoice.com/05/20...-for-13-books/



Works out to be low six figures.
So yeah, Howey is in that class.

And a higher class, too.
A very gracious gent.

Any date on that movie yet?
Yes, Hugh is a good writer.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

So what exactly are the publishers doing to promote?

For some authors (especially new or low midlist), not much. They do help (in various amounts from a little to a lot) with...
arranging book tours & signings
paying stores for book placement
con appearances
TV, radio, newspaper, magazine, blog & podcast interviews
author chats
book giveaways
ads in genre magazines blogs & on rare occasion TV & radio

So without actually following an author, how would someone know that Jack Canfield, Clive Cussler or anyone else put out a novel?
Am I supposed to walk in 100 degree heat to see who is newly out at the book store?
What if someone doesn't have an email address so can't receive newsletters?
How does someone not near a big city, learn about all the new traditional published books?

Not sure what you're expecting them to be doing exactly?

Book discovery has always been an issue for readers on various levels. Most readers have their own routines for discovery and keeping abreast of favorite authors be it author websites, publisher websites, genre & book magazines, genre message boards, fan sites, book info sites (Fantastic Fiction, FicFact, Fiction DB), book social sites (Goodreads, Library Thing, Shelfari), book clubs, libraries, browsing local & online book stores, genre, author and general book blogs, etc., etc.

How many authors have you seen mentioned on television or radio in the last year?
Not counting Harper Lee as she has been everywhere.

Are we talking ads or???

For ads not many, the ROI just isn't there especially for TV.

For appearances it's hard to say. I don't watch daytime talk shows, but I know some authors get play that way. For radio I can think of at least four authors I've heard giving interviews in the last six months and I mainly listen to audiobooks in the car and not a lot of radio. Appearances of course compete with other things, often things more popular with a wider audience, for air time.


A lot of it has to do with how much work and author is willing to do promoting. It's got to be a partnership to work & some authors are loathe to do promotion.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Any date on that movie yet?
Yes, Hugh is a good writer.

Last I read it's still in development (meaning not a sure thing) and they'd hired the Guardians of the Galaxy script writer to re-write the script.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

For some authors (especially new or low midlist), not much. They do help (in various amounts from a little to a lot) with...
arranging book tours & signings
paying stores for book placement
con appearances
TV, radio, newspaper, magazine, blog & podcast interviews
author chats
book giveaways
ads in genre magazines blogs & on rare occasion TV & radio


Not sure what you're expecting them to be doing exactly?

Book discovery has always been an issue for readers on various levels. Most readers have their own routines for discovery and keeping abreast of favorite authors be it author websites, publisher websites, genre & book magazines, genre message boards, fan sites, book info sites (Fantastic Fiction, FicFact, Fiction DB), book social sites (Goodreads, Library Thing, Shelfari), book clubs, libraries, browsing local & online book stores, genre, author and general book blogs, etc., etc.



Are we talking ads or???

For ads not many, the ROI just isn't there especially for TV.

For appearances it's hard to say. I don't watch daytime talk shows, but I know some authors get play that way. For radio I can think of at least four authors I've heard giving interviews in the last six months and I mainly listen to audiobooks in the car and not a lot of radio. Appearances of course compete with other things, often things more popular with a wider audience, for air time.


A lot of it has to do with how much work and author is willing to do promoting. It's got to be a partnership to work & some authors are loathe to do promotion.

I've actually seen several authors on TV with new books this year. It's not really unusual to see political book authors on the Fox talk shows. I've also seen a couple of authors on whatever show Whoopi has around noon since my barber has the show on when I get my hair cut (I tend to go a lunch time, so it's about the same time). Either I have good/bad luck (depending on how you define it) or it's pretty common to have authors pimping their books on these shows.

To a great extent, getting your book reviewed in the various major papers, such as the WSJ, can be traced to the publisher pushing the book.

[eschwartz]

Howey? Isn't that the self-publishing maniac MobileRead keeps on talking about every time self-publishing comes up?

No, I can't see why anyone would ever have heard of him.

[AnemicOak]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I've actually seen several authors on TV with new books this year. It's not really unusual to see political book authors on the Fox talk shows. I've also seen a couple of authors on whatever show Whoopi has around noon since my barber has the show on when I get my hair cut (I tend to go a lunch time, so it's about the same time). Either I have good/bad luck (depending on how you define it) or it's pretty common to have authors pimping their books on these shows.

Good to know, like I said I don't watch a lot of TV. I know authors also get time on the morning news shows, both national and local.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by fjtorres

Hugh Howey?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_Howey

He's the guy quietly making 7 figures annually in SF all by his lonesome.
He turned down a Scalzi-class contract because it was less than he was already making.
Which is more than enough to fund an entire data center of hundreds of computers to capture and process the Author Earnings data as a public service.

Apparently he's a pretty good SF writer.
Hopefully the movie will do justice to WOOL.

As for Scalzi's much publicized deal...
http://www.thepassivevoice.com/05/20...-for-13-books/



Works out to be low six figures.
So yeah, Howey is in that class.

And a higher class, too.
A very gracious gent.

Thanks for the pointer. Now I've heard of him. I was wondering how he was able to churn out so many titles so fast, but I see that he basically releases his titles a chapter at a time. I've heard that was a popular method of maximizing revenue in the kindle indie world.

I can see why I haven't heard of him, post apocalyptic novels aren't really my cup of tea, but hey, I'm glad that he's had such success. Still doesn't really put him in Scalzi's category outside the indie fan base. That's not a put down, a number of authors have made good money writing Star Wars, Star Trek, et al novels and are quite well known in that specific group of people.

Ok, so John Scalzi gets a $3.4 million dollar deal over 10 years. We are, of course, talking about his advances, not how much he's actually making.

Let's do the math -
advance -
John Scalzi - $3.4 M
Hugh Howey - $0

Yea, they are both apples and oranges comparisons. You compare just Scalzi's advances to Howey's total proceeds. I compare Scalzi's advances to Howey's advances. In the indie world, no advances (except maybe crowd sourcing), so it's not a fair comparison.

I point out that your math only looks at the ebook sales, which Scalzi said was a quarter of his earnings while a book is out in hardback. No idea what Howey makes for audio books, paper book sales and foreign sales. To actually compare them, you would need to look at their total takes. Can't really compare ebook "sales" since Howey is producing chapter books (I think that's the term that they use) that he sales for a buck. Not sure how many chapter books are grouped together to form a novel. The Wool Omni edition, which is Wool 1-5 is 550 pages and sells for $5. So each book is roughly a third of the size of one of Scalzi's novels (a bit over 300 pages for his top three books).

I would also point out that the Scalzi posted his sales figures for Lock In - 2,000 ebooks per month which is used as the high end for all of Scalzi's books in the analysis you posted.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

Good to know, like I said I don't watch a lot of TV. I know authors also get time on the morning news shows, both national and local.

The funny thing is I don't either. That's just from watching Sunday morning news shows and whatever was on at my barber shop. Past that, I rarely watch anything other than sports on TV.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Howey? Isn't that the self-publishing maniac MobileRead keeps on talking about every time self-publishing comes up?

No, I can't see why anyone would ever have heard of him.

It didn't ring a bell. I also can't tell you who the top romance novelists are.

I would presume that he is considered one of the top selling indie authors? Scalzi is what I would consider a high mid-list genre author. That kind of tells you the difference in the upside of traditional publishing verse indie publishing, doesn't it. The top seller in 2014 was John Green's "The Fault in our Stars" from Penguin. It sold -
Trade - 1,800,000 +
Hardcover - 769,000 +
Movie tie-in - 923,000 +
total - 3,492,000 +

That doesn't include ebooks or audiobooks. Compare that to the 24K that Lock In sold in hard cover. It gives a bit of perspective.

It's great that some indie authors are seeing success and making lots of money, but were there any indies in the top 100 selling kindle books in 2014? I didn't see any. Perhaps there is, I didn't recognize all the names and books in the list. Andy Weir started as an indie, but like many if not most successful indies, he turned to a traditional publisher. There is a reason. The question shouldn't be why don't successful authors turn indie, it's why would they?

[dickloraine]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

IAndy Weir started as an indie, but like many if not most successful indies, he turned to a traditional publisher. There is a reason.

The reason of course is that print is still important. And the best way to get into shops is by a publisher. Of course I don't know any contractual details, but I bet they get much better ones than normal author. They aren't desperate for a contract, they make it, because it benefits them. And they have proof of being profitable for the publisher.

Other fields of works have unions, to protect workers. Author don't have them, groups like the author guild have done nothing to negotiate for better standard contracts. Now there is a way to earn money without publishers. And that highlights just how bad some of the contracts in publishing are for authors. For the first time, there is now an alternative.

Having a publisher can be a good thing for authors. Options are good. But only through self-publishing options are now there.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by dickloraine

but I bet they get much better ones than normal author. They aren't desperate for a contract, they make it, because it benefits them. And they have proof of being profitable for the publisher..

That actually runs both ways.
Established authors benefit from better contracts but the way things are headed, they are the only ones benefitting from publisher support because the bulk of BPH revenue comes from them:

Big-5 publishers are massively reliant on their most established authors to the tune of 63% of their e-book revenue.

http://authorearnings.com/report/the...author-report/

There is a generational divide at work: authors who established themselves pre-conspiracy are benefiting from tradpub contracts. Those who weren't established by then aren't.

There is a limit to the value of B&M print access because the biggest benefit is the front table payola and that only goes to the top seller (older) authors. The bar for that support is getting ever higher, even for older authors, leading to things like this:

Hamilton and his agent, Shane Salerno, said the publisher's comment was deeply misleading and, contrary to what SMP implied, it was Hamilton who chose to end the relationship. The reason? A lackluster plan from SMP to promote The Second Life of Nick Mason.

A two time Edgar-winner, Hamilton, who has been at SMP for 17 years, said the publisher's statement "wasn’t right factually, and it wasn’t right in principle, not after such a long relationship." He added: "This was my decision and mine alone. And any suggestion otherwise is ridiculous."

Hamilton, however, said none of those claims are true. "There was no national campaign," he wrote via email. "None at all." Staying with his publisher, given what they were doing, was unthinkable, he added. "The catastrophe that would have transpired for a book with extraordinary advance reviews would have been unfair to me, to my book, and to every bookseller."

When asked about the statements made about the supposed marketing plans for the book, SMP again declined to comment. However, it is an open secret in the publishing industry that claims made on galleys and other material for the trade--about everything from first printings to marketing budgets and efforts--can be gross exaggerations. This fact has begun to spread beyond the confines of the industry, though, as more authors and industry experts take to the Internet with posts about the realities of what Big Five publishers actually do for most authors on the marketing front.

http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/b...f-support.html

In the olden days writers had no choice but to quietly put up with lack of support. Omerta ruled. But as even the tradpub establishment mouthpieces admit, those days are over. Having options makes "you'll never work in this town again" a hollow threat.

It'll be interesting to see where Hamilton lands.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

It didn't ring a bell. I also can't tell you who the top romance novelists are.

And if I had suggested you should know about him because he is a top seller, then maybe I could understand what you are trying to say.

Instead, I was implying that as the poster boy for indie publishing, I am surprised you haven't heard of him -- since you can often be found in threads like, um this one?

Threads discussing the state of publishing and self-publishing rarely include romance rankings -- but Howey and Konrath get quoted as gospel.
One would almost think you had no interest in or knowledge of the self-publishing industry

I would presume that he is considered one of the top selling indie authors? Scalzi is what I would consider a high mid-list genre author. That kind of tells you the difference in the upside of traditional publishing verse indie publishing, doesn't it. The top seller in 2014 was John Green's "The Fault in our Stars" from Penguin. It sold -
Trade - 1,800,000 +
Hardcover - 769,000 +
Movie tie-in - 923,000 +
total - 3,492,000 +

That doesn't include ebooks or audiobooks. Compare that to the 24K that Lock In sold in hard cover. It gives a bit of perspective.

Correct -- the top-selling tradpub authors would be the ones who sell in every airport newsstand, to people who don't usually read, and everywhere else on the planet. No indie will ever make as many sales (or money) as the James Patterson Collective, for example.

Comparing a fairly successful high-end midlister genre author to a fairly successful high-end indie genre author seems fair enough to me, no one except you has implied that anyone thinks indies are expected to reach that one-in-a-million author whose books personally get handed out for causal gifts at the same rate as gift cards.


The vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast, vast majority of tradpub authors don't make it there either.

I could go on for longer, but there is only so many times you can type the word "vast" before getting sick and tired of it.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by dickloraine

The reason of course is that print is still important. And the best way to get into shops is by a publisher. Of course I don't know any contractual details, but I bet they get much better ones than normal author. They aren't desperate for a contract, they make it, because it benefits them. And they have proof of being profitable for the publisher.

Other fields of works have unions, to protect workers. Author don't have them, groups like the author guild have done nothing to negotiate for better standard contracts. Now there is a way to earn money without publishers. And that highlights just how bad some of the contracts in publishing are for authors. For the first time, there is now an alternative.

Having a publisher can be a good thing for authors. Options are good. But only through self-publishing options are now there.

Authors have agents to protect them and negotiate better contracts. No different than sports figures and actors in that regard. I'm pretty sure that Tom Clancy and J.K. Rowlings predated the self publishing possibilities that you talk about. As far as I can tell, things are not greatly different for authors than they were 10 years ago. Once again, it's nice that authors have options, but it's not nearly the game changer you think.