Is ebook piracy on the rise?

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I don't equate a willingness to take something offered for free whether it is needed or not with a willingness to perform theft.

Neither do I. I equate it with a willingness to take something for free, whether it is needed (or even desired) or not. Human nature often includes selfishness: Taking something just because others take it, or even to keep others from having it.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Nor do I assume that because some people will loot after a disaster, everyone would if an opportunity arise and they thought they could get away with it.

If you do, (and your comments make it appear so), you have a far more pessimistic view of your fellow human beings than I do.

I clearly said in my comments: Not every person does this; however, enough of them do it to be a concern among businesspeople. You can't deny thousands of years of human history. Theft happens. Selfishness happens. Business loss happens. Any smart businessperson must take these facts into account, because it will impact their bottom line, and possibly their ability to stay in business.

And I repeat: This is not a blanket condemnation of Humanity, as some of you may think. (I can think of one or two other reasons to condemn Humanity, but I won't go into that here!) Just a statement of fact.

Originally Posted by acidzebra

Piracy won't go away, period. That is understood, right?

Say no more.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DaleDe

I suspect you're right in that it can be sold for $6 if the publishing and promotion costs are already done when it was a pbook. $4 is pushing the lower limit however (as specified by the originator), particularly if there are any pictures with an illustrator to take a cut in the profits and dealers to make any money.

Dale

I think sales would rise dramatically if eBooks were all $6 each. I'd even purchase more new books that way.

[acidzebra]

Originally Posted by slayda

Interesting concept here. A person who steals, but freely admits it, is seen as "refreshingly honest". Am I missing something?

Yes, I suspect you are. Then again, I can't wrap my head around you continually moaning about not getting a freebie from Sony so I expect the feeling to be mutual.

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by sassanik

For the music business, they are getting no more money from me than they have in the past. As I have never regularly purchased music they are not losing business from me, they never had it in the first place. I was willing to pay when I could get it through allofmp3.com, though I am not sure that the artists actually got money from those, Russian copyright is very fuzzy. I would be willing to pay again if I felt that the prices were what I wanted to pay. Otherwise I will go to my library, which I do pay for through my taxes and my late fee's and support them.

Amy

Amy, I'm pretty sure AllofMP3 wasn't paying the artists anything, so the cost per song might need to be a bit higher than what they were charging to be fair. They did probably have an advantage in pricing simply due to the fact that the operators were working in a lower-cost economy.

But I'm inclined to agree that you are supporting the artists at least somewhat by going to the local library, which is likely to continue to buy more music by artists you've borrowed in the past. I don't think it's quite right, though, because the CDs get returned to be borrowed by other patrons. Maybe you could consider buying a percentage of music by your favorite artists, just to sort of balance things out? Particularly if you can buy it directly from them through websites, concert sales, etc.

[slayda]

Originally Posted by acidzebra

Yes, I suspect you are. Then again, I can't wrap my head around you continually moaning about not getting a freebie from Sony so I expect the feeling to be mutual.

Just want what I paid for. The real ability to read RTF & PDF. Could care less about Adobe DE & EPUB upgrade. So I'm not moaning about "freebie" just want my money's worth.

[acidzebra]

Yes, I know that is your view on the matter. I disagree, much as you apparently disagree with my comment that it is refreshingly honest that someone actually comes forward and states he has pirated content on his reader (something I am sure many here are guilty of but few will confess to). Hence my remark.

[CTH]

Ok, first of all we should look at the magnitude of the problem. In several intreviews with publisher and authors we have been abel to read that they don't belive that ebooks will replace pbooks but be a compliment to them. At least not in a long time. And then we have piracy of books that only can be applied to ebooks (Ok, I have acctually bought a pirated pbook in vietnam but it missed the last chapters ) so let say that 30 % of all ebooks is pirated (a pretty high number I would say, and that is the lost profit of ebooks not the acctually ammount of dll ebooks) and 30 % of all books sold is ebooks (even higher, much higher!) then it would only be 10% of all books that would be pirated, this is not very much, not as much as it would be problem. And after all the most books pirated would be best sellers anyway so the author would not be poor.

OK with that said, lets look at other parameters that would make piracy of ebook a minor problem.

First we have language, most people would like to read in thier mother tounge. This require unlike music that you don't translate, much more work for the uploader, or rahter it require several copiers of the same book. Right now is it pretty damn hard to find any pirated books in swedish and I don't think it will be much easier in the future. (well in sweden you can lend books online from libraries in mobibook and pdf formats so it is still a pretty good situatuon )

Second, the time, equipment and effort of coping a pbook compare to music or movies. This is right now a major obstical for piracy, it will be easier when it is just to remove the DRM.

Third, the value of having a physical book in a bookshelf. Unlike a movie or music you can't get you book in to a physical media (well you can print it but honestly it is not the same) that is as good as the copies from the store. Music has NO extra value when you buy it from the store compared to download it, ok you will get a bit better quality but most people doesn't notice that anyway. Movies has a little more, if you dll a .avi file a bought dvd is pretty much better but with broadband youc an dll a full dvd and burn it. But a blue-ray disc is not really easy to download with todays internetconnections, 50 gb is to much so there you get a extra value from a store bought movie, HD quality

Fourth the book industry is allready ahead of the music and movie industry in ways of buying books online, wispernet and regular online ebook stores. As soon as a standard format will be decided upon (epub perhaps) it will be easy to buy ebooks. And it will be easy from the begining (I count the begining in ebooks as when ereaders start to sell, which is now) to buy legaly ebooks, compare to the music industry that just barley has started to catch up. And dll from p2p and other darknet sources is allways a bit of a hassle to the common user. A legal alternative that is easy to use will quickly be populare and widespread, (like iTunes).

Fifth, some authors might want a wide audinece to spread their message, it seems to me that that is more common among writers than among music artist or movie makers. And as it has been mention, piracy can sometimes boost sales because it will easy find a auidience.
Like I downloaded Codex Seraphinianus just because it looked cool. (It is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_Seraphinianus) I would never had bought it because it cost like 500 $ but I shoved it to my dad and he really loved it. And he has now bought it. He would probobly never has found it in a bookstore because it is so rare and expensive. And now I am posting a link to it here so that perhaps someone of you will buy it and in that way increese sale. And it would never had happend if I didn't downloaded it.
I am not sure that piracy allways boost sales (pretty sure it don't but sometimes it is not that bad...

That was all I had on thesubject for now

Over and out

[Lexicon]

Originally Posted by slayda

Interesting concept here. A person who infringes on someone's copyright, but freely admits it, is seen as "refreshingly honest". Am I missing something?

Fixed that for you. Copyright infringement is not theft, nor is it stealing, nor is it piracy (no boats or ships are involved).

Using incorrect terms just serves to complicate the debate and mislead gullible people, which is why the copyright lobby adopted the tactic. Please don't support them in their campaign of misinformation.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Lexicon

Using incorrect terms just serves to complicate the debate and mislead gullible people, which is why the copyright lobby adopted the tactic. Please don't support them in their campaign of misinformation.

And speaking of which...

Originally Posted by slayda

Interesting concept here. A person who takes something for free that they know they are expected to pay for, but freely admits it, is seen as "refreshingly honest".

Fixed that for you.

[nekokami]

I've compiled a list of points of view expressed in this (and other) threads. Note that many of these are mutually exclusive-- this isn't meant to be a consensus, but an inventory of opinions expressed. I'm sure I missed some. Anyone want to chime in?

I was thinking we could have a survey or poll on sticky at the top of the section, so people could see that most of these arguments have been rehashed already, and see how people have weighed in over time.

DRM and piracy Points of View:

- Anyone who downloads an ebook from the darknet is a pirate and a criminal.

- Anyone who uploads an ebook to the darknet is a pirate and a criminal.

- Downloading or uploading ebooks via the darknet is a civil, not criminal offense.

- Downloading an ebook from the darknet if you already own a copy of the same book in paper is morally ok.

- Downloading an ebook from the darknet if it is out of print is morally ok.

- Downloading an ebook from the darknet is the equivalent to borrowing a book from your local library.

- Downloading an ebook from the darknet if you are poor is ok, because you wouldn't have been able to afford to buy it anyway.

- Most people will download ebooks from the darknet if they are available there for free.

- Few people will download ebooks from the darknet.

- Most people would pay for ebooks at a "reasonable price" if they were available, rather than downloading them from the darknet.

- Illegal downloads of ebooks are a significant threat to authors' incomes.

- Illegal downloads of ebooks do not affect authors' incomes significantly.

- Illegal downloads of ebooks increase authors' incomes significantly, by increasing exposure to the authors' work.

- Ebooks on the darknet are low-quality.

- There are high-quality sources of ebooks on the darknet.

- DRM is needed by publishers and authors to protect their intellectual property.

- DRM is evil - it punishes legitimate customers but doesn't stop hackers from copying files

- DRM is irrelevant

- Some kinds of DRM are ok, but not others.

- Ebooks should cost:
--The same as the current lowest-cost paper version
--The same as the current highest-cost paper version
--Discounted from the lowest-cost paper version
--Discounted by the difference between ebook production and paper production costs
--No more than US$6
--No more than US$2
--Free

- Authors deserve to be paid for their work

- Authors should depend on other sources for income, e.g. speaking engagements

- Publishers deserve to be paid for their work (editing, typesetting, etc.)

- Publishers are becoming irrelevant and should be cut out of the process.

[JSWolf]

I'd go for the difference in the cost from the pBook vs. the eBook. And remember, we are not talking some percentage off the currently lowest priced pBook out there. We are talking how much is really costs to make the eBook.

So when the book is out in hardcover, I think $6 is very reasonable and then if that turns out to be a lower figure, lower the price when the eBook goes to paperback (no matter which edition paperback). That would be very fair to us the consumer.

[slayda]

Since several of you have seen fit to "modify" my original statement, I will follow your examples. This more properly states the irony I was trying to point out.

A person who is dishonest , but freely admits it, is seen as "refreshingly honest".

i.e. by admitting to being dishonest, a person could be seen to be refreshingly honest. Honest is honest and dishonest is dishonest, whether it is for a penny or a million dollars.

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by axel77

If I pirate a book, that my library next door bought, wouldn't it still be somehow comparable to lending it? Since they *did* buy that book already.

Its all so complicated...

If you actually check out the book, and only read the downloaded version while you had the book checked out of the library, yes, I guess it would be pretty comparable. Checking out the book is important because otherwise the library doesn't know the author is popular and has no reason to buy their next book or recommend the current one (even assuming you don't live in a country that compensates authors for library loans).

[Ea]

Originally Posted by nekokami

If you actually check out the book, and only read the downloaded version while you had the book checked out of the library, yes, I guess it would be pretty comparable. Checking out the book is important because otherwise the library doesn't know the author is popular and has no reason to buy their next book or recommend the current one (even assuming you don't live in a country that compensates authors for library loans).

(bolding mine)

Just to add a little to the confusion, in Denmark, as far as I understand it, authors get paid on the basis of the number of their books that is in the library system, it doesn't matter at all if the book is checked out or not. The libraries buy books based partly on popularity AND partly to ensure that a wide range of literature is available to everyone, such as those people who can't afford to buy - also so-called 'narrow' books with a small audience, and films and music and other creative works that is avaliable through the library. The library 'compensation' is actually a type of state-granted artists support - that's the idea at least - it has nothing directly to do with 'reimbursing' for perceived lost sales because of library loans.

[stepanok]

Why all this preaching ???....Its quite simple really....You people who buy all your books legally will go to heaven and the ones ( like me ) who have downloaded illefgally will go to hell....I guess that settle's it