Is ebook piracy on the rise?

[llasram]

Originally Posted by acidzebra

"Darknet" is a popular term on this board I've noticed, but I don't quite follow the way it is used here. If I had to define the term, I would go for something like a private virtual network where users connect only to people they trust - a private net within the net. While most people here seem to refer to open p2p like bittorrent, or news downloads from alt.binaries.ebooks and the like.

So what is it, regular p2p or private dark and shady VPN where mass illicit trading in ebooks is going on? And if it is the second, why hasn't anyone told me?

I think in general use "a darknet" is as you describe -- a private network of trusted users. Here "the darknet" seems to be generally used to refer to the set of publicly-accessible but copyright-violating material, most of which is not indexed by general Web search engines. Maybe "dimnet" would be a better term for the latter .

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Well, as there actually is a "darknet," providing evidence of people actively ripping producers off, I think there's a legitimate reason for people to have that concern. It's not entirely neurotic when you can see it's really happening (though it may be neurotic to assume it is too big and pervasive to stop).

Sure there's a darknet. I've seen it. So have you.

The question is how much effect it really has in practical terms.

As a writer selling ebooks, you have a simple concern: how many people are downloading illegal copies of your work from the darknet and reading it instead of buying a copy from you? Those are lost sales.

Simple downloads don't count. Those aren't lost sales. It's the "download and read instead of buying" you're concerned with. And there is no way to measure it.

Your best strategy is what you probably already do: promote yourself to make it easy for people to find out you write books they might like, and make it as simple as possible to buy them when they do find you.

Anything more than a mild background concern about the darknet is likely a waste of time and energy.

And despite an innate desire for optimism, the fact is that people overall will take what they want if given the chance and the belief that they'll get away with it... it's just a fact of human nature. It's why "free giveaways" work as well as they do.

And that's what I mean about unconscious attitudes about the world. Why do you make that assumption, Steve?

Making blanket statements like that is always risky, and generally says a lot more about the person making the statement than it does about those they refer to.

For the record, I don't assume that's human nature. We all do what we perceive to be in our own interests, but we also all have limits on how far we'll go, unless we are certifiably sociopathic. The question is what the limits are, and whether the behavioral controls are internal or external.

Yes, we mostly like free giveaways. But those aren't theft: those are taking advantage of an offer someone else is making. I'm not stealing it: they're giving it to me. Sure, they're hoping the free giveaway will induce me to also buy some of whatever they sell, and that works often enough that people continue to make free giveaway offers.

On the other hand, though the "darknet" may be free, it is not always easy to find what you want, and the quality often sucks. If a product is available legally that is of good quality, reasonably priced, and easy to obtain, the need for and impact of a "darknet" is subsequently reduced. And as soon as the market perceives there is such an entity (the "iTunes of e-books"), we'll see less of a "darknet" and related activity. Kindle-type services are a good start, and given more e-book reader features, it should get better.

Exactly. Too much darknet stuff, especially in ebooks, is just more trouble than it's worth. I place a high enough value on my time that it's cheaper all told to just buy a legitimate copy of the book, than to spend the time and effort needed to get it into any form I might want to read.
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Dennis

[Amalthia]

So far the only online book store I've been happy with using multiple times is the Baen ebook store. I LOVE that the books are reasonably priced about 4-6 dollars. But most importantly I love that you can re-download your purchases in a variety of formats. So if you end up not liking the way the LIT version looks, you have the option to try the RTF/HTML/LRF/MOBI and etc....

I got a book from booksonboard and had issues with the formatting of the PRC copy, (which was DRM protected) and would have had to pay again just to try the LIT copy.

Every online ebook store I've seen has that business model except for Baen. Which is the main reason I spend more of my money at Baen. I like the flexiblity of their online store. I don't feel as worried that the books I purchase there will someday be unreadable on my Sony PRS-505.

I think pricing ebooks from 2-6 dollars is fair. 6 being for the newer books, and the lower price would be for older/out of print.

Most people, including me would prefer just paying the 2-6 dollar range because going through the darknet and downloading the same book 10 times trying to find a decent copy takes a lot of time and at this point I have more money than time. But to save 12- 22 dollars, I've been spending my time at the darknet instead.

I get that publishers need to get paid and I do appreciate a good editor but charging over 20 dollars for an electronic book that's been in print over 10 years is a bit much. That and I can't find some titles on any ebook store so I have to use the darknet to find Tad Williams - Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn trilogy. (but the copies totally suck over there, though I guess it's still better than nothing)

[slayda]

Originally Posted by Amothea

So far the only online book store I've been happy with using multiple times is the Baen ebook store. I LOVE that the books are reasonably priced about 4-6 dollars. But most importantly I love that you can re-download your purchases in a variety of formats. So if you end up not liking the way the LIT version looks, you have the option to try the RTF/HTML/LRF/MOBI and etc....

I got a book from booksonboard and had issues with the formatting of the PRC copy, (which was DRM protected) and would have had to pay again just to try the LIT copy.

Every online ebook store I've seen has that business model except for Baen. Which is the main reason I spend more of my money at Baen. I like the flexiblity of their online store. I don't feel as worried that the books I purchase there will someday be unreadable on my Sony PRS-505.

I think pricing ebooks from 2-6 dollars is fair. 6 being for the newer books, and the lower price would be for older/out of print.

Most people, including me would prefer just paying the 2-6 dollar range because going through the darknet and downloading the same book 10 times trying to find a decent copy takes a lot of time and at this point I have more money than time. But to save 12- 22 dollars, I've been spending my time at the darknet instead.

I get that publishers need to get paid and I do appreciate a good editor but charging over 20 dollars for an electronic book that's been in print over 10 years is a bit much. That and I can't find some titles on any ebook store so I have to use the darknet to find Tad Williams - Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn trilogy. (but the copies totally suck over there, though I guess it's still better than nothing)

On Fictionwise, if you purchase their "Multiformat" books, you can choose from several formats, redownload in formats other than your initial DL & I believe are DRM free.

[acidzebra]

I don't know if the "quality" argument (I've seen several references to the low quality of pirated ebooks, particularly scanned/OCRed material) will hold in the long term - after all, OCR and other scanning techniques will only get better, and once more DRM-burdened books come out it will be easier for pirates to just strip the protection.

Look at movie piracy, I already see bluray torrents floating around that are many Gbs in size and pixel-perfect. And modern movie codecs are amazing and are likely to get better still in the future.

While I totally agree that ebook piracy is not the death of the budding ebook industry that we all hope will sprout into a big whopping business, the quality of pirated works is not a very good counterargument.

[elsussman]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I believe that being dead gives you immunity to prosecution,

Actually Harry it does not...they can go after your estate in civil litigation.. This happened to the family of a colleague(physician) of mine who was sued after his demise by those bottom feeders known as personal injury lawyers

Elihu

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

And that's what I mean about unconscious attitudes about the world. Why do you make that assumption, Steve?

Because I've seen it... that's all. Have you ever seen someone take something they were offered for free, even though they didn't really want it... but just because it was free? I have. Have you ever seen looters after a disaster or riot? I have. It happens. Not a belief or a judgment, just a fact based on eye-witnessing.

I'm not saying every human does it. But I am saying that enough humans do it to make it something to consider in any market. Merchants all understand that... that's why stores have locks, and why merchants know they can get on peoples' good side simply by giving something away, in most countries in the world.

[nekokami]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

I wonder whether a lot of this has nothing to do with the facts on the ground, and everything to do with unconscious attitudes about the world.

Yes, I honestly think so. And it's not black-and-white, either, but as people tend toward the pessimistic view of humanity, they also tend to get more hysterical about the "evils of piracy," I think.

Originally Posted by cstross

Ideally I'd like to see publishers print some sort of one-time download code in the back of my books so that purchasers can download an e-copy...

Oh, I wish! (Why one-time?)

Originally Posted by acidzebra

"Darknet" is a popular term on this board I've noticed, but I don't quite follow the way it is used here.

I may have been one of the earlier people to popularize the term "darknet" in Mobileread discussions about DRM and piracy. I took my definition from this article:

http://www.bearcave.com/misl/misl_te...rm/darknet.htm

The darknet is not a separate physical network but an application and protocol layer riding on existing networks. Examples of darknets are peer-to-peer file sharing, CD and DVD copying, and key or password sharing on email and newsgroups.

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

Agreed, most darknet copies are awful. I've seen them, wouldn't try to read them as is, and can't be bothered to do the work required to get them into any form I'd consider readable. I value my time too highly, and it's cheaper viewed that way to just buy the book.

In my case, I have bought the books in paper. They're inaccessable, in storage, and legitimate ebook versions are simply not available. Otherwise I'd happily sell off my hard copy collection and use the proceeds to buy Baen-priced ebooks. Instead, I put up with badly formatted ebook versions, because that's all I can get.

Which reminds me, I think one of the other breakpoints on how people feel about DRM and using the darknet comes down to whether one re-reads or not. People who re-read a lot (and about 50% of MobileRead members say they do) tend to insist on non-DRM formats, and tend to see nothing wrong with downloading a darknet copy of a book they've already paid for in paper. Those who read a book only once tend to have no problems with DRM and don't see any value in downloading a book they already have in paper.

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by acidzebra

I don't know if the "quality" argument (I've seen several references to the low quality of pirated ebooks, particularly scanned/OCRed material) will hold in the long term - after all, OCR and other scanning techniques will only get better, and once more DRM-burdened books come out it will be easier for pirates to just strip the protection.

Right now, most of the pirated works are scans of pbooks, because proper ebook editions don't exist.

Scanning has gotten better (if you feel like pawing for the higher end equipment and software), but what you get after scan and OCR is still a text file. There isn't a convenient automated way to correctly mark that up as an ebook, and I haven't seen a poster provided scans who could be bothered to do it manually.

Plain text leaves a good deal to be desired as a reading format.

As more proper ebooks get ripped, there will be more concern. But agreed, DRM is largely pointless, because it will br broken sooner rather than later. It causes problems for the intended buyer, but poses little challenge for the cracker.
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Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Amothea

I think pricing ebooks from 2-6 dollars is fair. 6 being for the newer books, and the lower price would be for older/out of print.

Most people, including me would prefer just paying the 2-6 dollar range because going through the darknet and downloading the same book 10 times trying to find a decent copy takes a lot of time and at this point I have more money than time. But to save 12- 22 dollars, I've been spending my time at the darknet instead.

The question is whether the $2-$6 range you cite is feasible. Offhand, I suspect not.

Consider what happens when a book is bought for publication. An editor reads the manuscript, and decides it's a book her house can sell. She negotiates with the author or author's agent over the contract, and offers an advance against royalties for the book rights. How big the advance will be will be determined by how many copies of the book the publisher thinks it can sell. A book perceived as a potential best seller will get a much better deal than a first novel from a new writer.

Once a deal is struck and a manuscript is accepted, the manuscript must be line edited by the editor, who will issue a note requesting revisions designed to improve the book. An Art Director must design a cover and commision art for it, and a book designer must create the typography and interior layout specifications. The revised manuscript must be copy edited and proofread, and then marked up and typeset and put into a form that can be handed to a printer to make plates and print the book.

We have the advance paid for the book, the fee paid for the cover art, plus the time of the editor who acquired and edited it,the lawyer who worked on the contract, the Art Director and Book Designer, the copy editor, the proofreader, and the DTP person who created the files for the printer, and we have an allocated share of the overhead of the publisher, covering things like office space rental, utilities and phone service.

And all of this is before the book is actually printed, bound, warehoused, or distributed.

Yes, we can expect ebooks to be cheaper than pbooks, because they don't have manufacturing, warehousing, and distribution costs, but we are unlikely to see them that much cheaper. The sort of cheap prices I see wished for seem to presume that either the up front costs of acquiring and preparing a book are a lot lower than they likely are, or that a cheaper ebook can sell a large enough volume of copies to make up for the lower price. That presumes that price is the main reason people don't buy more books. It's a factor, but I doubt it's the only factor, or the most important factor.

Books compete for the reader's discretionary time, and you have to consider what the reader might be doing instead of reading a book.

Personally, time is my biggest limitation. I have a substantial backlog of both paper and electronic books in my To Be Read stack. When I buy books, my biggest decision is not "Can I afford it?". It's "When will I have a chance to read it?. Some books get put back because they aren't compelling enough to merit buying at the moment, when there are other books I'd rather read.
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Dennis

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Because I've seen it... that's all. Have you ever seen someone take something they were offered for free, even though they didn't really want it... but just because it was free? I have. Have you ever seen looters after a disaster or riot? I have. It happens. Not a belief or a judgment, just a fact based on eye-witnessing.

I don't equate a willingness to take something offered for free whether it is needed or not with a willingness to perform theft.

Nor do I assume that because some people will loot after a disaster, everyone would if an opportunity arise and they thought they could get away with it.

If you do, (and your comments make it appear so), you have a far more pessimistic view of your fellow human beings than I do.

I'm not saying every human does it. But I am saying that enough humans do it to make it something to consider in any market. Merchants all understand that... that's why stores have locks, and why merchants know they can get on peoples' good side simply by giving something away, in most countries in the world.

Consider, certainly. The question is how much consideration and what counter measures.

For instance, I worked in retail a long time ago, and my then employer was having an internal debate about whether shoplifting was better discouraged by plain clothes security personnel to catch thieves and turn them over to the police, or uniformed and highly noticeable security folks to keep shoplifters from trying in the first place.

But while "shrinkage" is a very real problem for a retailer, the vast majority of shoppers are honest. And while piracy certainly happens, I don't think it's a great enough threat to ebook publishing to merit some of the prevention measures advocated.
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Dennis

[sassanik]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Tell me, Sassinak - what do you do for a living? Do you give away your work for free, or do you actually expect the people who consume whatever it is that you produce to PAY you for it?

Alas I do give away a good bit of my work. Some of my work has gone into non-profit projects for which I recieved no payment. While admitidly not all of my work has gone to non-profits, with no money recieved by me, some of it has.

If I go to the grocery store and find that beef is priced too high, I simply don't buy it that day. I don't "steal" it, but I can choose through my actions to not pay a price that I do not want to.

A reasonable price is whatever a person is willing to pay. That is the way the market works. In my case I don't want to pay what the current rates are for .mp3's. I could simply choose to record the music off the public airwaves, but instead I support my local library.

I do pay for my ebooks, and willingly do so. I do not have a problem with them and do not "pirate" them. I do disagree with the pricing on some of them, and those are the ones I simply check out the hardback or paperback from my library or go to my local used bookstore.

In reality the publishers are now getting more money from me, as I now buy ebooks regularly, when previously I purchased a good number of my books through the local used bookstore, which does not give money to the author or the publisher. I think that ebooks are a great way for publishers to actually increase their "real" sales in the sense that people like me who would have bought books at used bookstores in the past are now buying ebooks.

For the music business, they are getting no more money from me than they have in the past. As I have never regularly purchased music they are not losing business from me, they never had it in the first place. I was willing to pay when I could get it through allofmp3.com, though I am not sure that the artists actually got money from those, Russian copyright is very fuzzy. I would be willing to pay again if I felt that the prices were what I wanted to pay. Otherwise I will go to my library, which I do pay for through my taxes and my late fee's and support them.

Amy

[DMcCunney]

Originally Posted by elsussman

Actually Harry it does not...they can go after your estate in civil litigation.. This happened to the family of a colleague(physician) of mine who was sued after his demise by those bottom feeders known as personal injury lawyers

Elihu

A friend of mine had to deal with that years back. Her mother had been a psychiatrist working in a state mental facility. One of her patients was a suicidal depressive who finally achieved his desire when he was murdered by another patient. The victim's family had shown conspicuous lack of concern for him when he was still arrive, but appeared like a swarm of piranhas accompanied by sharks when he was dead, and there was a possibility of a pot of gold at the end of a negligence suit rainbow.

The state paid for Mom's malpractice and liability coverage, but Mom hadn't been very good about record keeping, and the estate was in a mess. It took my friend months to get it sorted.
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Dennis

[rlauzon]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

The question is whether the $2-$6 range you cite is feasible. Offhand, I suspect not.

We know from people in the publishing industry like Eric Flint, that 80% of the price you pay for a pBook relates to the physical-ness of the pBook (paper, printing, transportation, etc.).

I go to Amazon.com and pick a book (how about Eric Flint's Time Spike). List price $24. 20% of $24 = $4.8.

Some Manga: Kitchen Princess 8.
List price: $11. 20% of $11 = $2.2

So the $2-$6 price range is what publishers, authors, etc. currently get from a pBook. Since eBooks don't have those physical costs, the $2-$6 price range for an eBook is not only feasible, but anything above that is price gouging (especially since most pBooks don't sell for their list price).

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by DMcCunney

The question is whether the $2-$6 range you cite is feasible. Offhand, I suspect not.

Consider what happens when a book is bought for publication. An editor reads the manuscript, and decides it's a book her house can sell. She negotiates with the author or author's agent over the contract, and offers an advance against royalties for the book rights. How big the advance will be will be determined by how many copies of the book the publisher thinks it can sell. A book perceived as a potential best seller will get a much better deal than a first novel from a new writer.

Once a deal is struck and a manuscript is accepted, the manuscript must be line edited by the editor, who will issue a note requesting revisions designed to improve the book. An Art Director must design a cover and commision art for it, and a book designer must create the typography and interior layout specifications. The revised manuscript must be copy edited and proofread, and then marked up and typeset and put into a form that can be handed to a printer to make plates and print the book.

We have the advance paid for the book, the fee paid for the cover art, plus the time of the editor who acquired and edited it,the lawyer who worked on the contract, the Art Director and Book Designer, the copy editor, the proofreader, and the DTP person who created the files for the printer, and we have an allocated share of the overhead of the publisher, covering things like office space rental, utilities and phone service.

And all of this is before the book is actually printed, bound, warehoused, or distributed.

Yes, we can expect ebooks to be cheaper than pbooks, because they don't have manufacturing, warehousing, and distribution costs, but we are unlikely to see them that much cheaper. The sort of cheap prices I see wished for seem to presume that either the up front costs of acquiring and preparing a book are a lot lower than they likely are, or that a cheaper ebook can sell a large enough volume of copies to make up for the lower price. That presumes that price is the main reason people don't buy more books. It's a factor, but I doubt it's the only factor, or the most important factor.

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Dennis

If I may counterpoint, how much more does a repeat printing cost in the P-book world? Everything you listed is already done for a second printing of a p-book. You just manufacture, warehouse, and ship, correct? Most of the overhead of editing, cover design, copy editing, proofreading, mark-up, typesetting, ect. has already been done for the p-book first edition. Yes?

So why are all these expenses being rebudgeted to an e-book? Especially if they are planned to be released, say, a year after the p-book edition. One would assume that it would be able to piggyback off of the existing effort, like a paperback does off a hardback. If I'm wrong, please explain to me what I'm missing...