"fan fiction "......

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by HarryT

There was no insult intended, and I do apologise if it upset you. It was a genuine question.

Was the following also posted with no insult intended? I don't even see anything here about fanfiction writers writing fanfiction for work where the rights holder is okay with / encourages fanfiction, or when there is no copyright infringement (either because the piece of fanfiction falls within fair use in the given jurisdiction or because the work is in public domain).

Originally Posted by HarryT

Because the fan fiction writer is a leech, a parasite, a blood-sucker, feeding from the creativity of someone else. If somebody wants to be an author, let them create their own worlds, not steal somebody else's.

And yes, I do bring it up again, because, as a fanfiction writer, with many fanfiction writing friends, all of us writing (and sharing) fanfiction out of love for the original, not for profit or fame but to interact with the source material and other fans, to explore the character motivations and what-if scenarios in that universe, I considered this an insult.

(And I would also really like to know if you'd tell the same thing to screenwriters for TV shows, authors of TV show tie-in novels and the people writing and publishing, for money, new works based on Jane Austen's novels or Sherlock Holmes or new takes on fairytales or ... well, anything in the public domain - it may not be copyright infringement, but all those people are "feeding from the creativity of someone else", with not a single one of them even pretending to create their own worlds.)

[spindlegirl]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm not a lawyer, but as a software author I.....

If you work for the PS3 company in any capacity, rest assured that my 18 year old son refuses bootlegs of any games he owns (from his classmates, who proudly torrent everything) and has spent hundreds of dollars of his own money, delaying gratification if necessary, over the years on nintendo, and PS2 games. I hope that puts to rest any "questions" you may have about what I have raised my children to become.

(My daughter also spent her birthday money at Chapters bookSTORE and for years my account at YesAsia for all the J-pop and asian music she owns has burst at the seams)

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Strictly speaking you'd be breaking the copyright law of your own country by uploading it. It's not an unusual situation; it happens all the time with eBooks. I doubt anyone would actually care in such a case. Never heard of anyone getting into trouble about it.

It's only breaking copyright law if fanfiction is not fair use. And declaring that someone else in another country *would be* breaking their copyright law, says you have a firm awareness of copyright law in several countries.

Originally Posted by HarryT

Absolutely right. You should certainly consult a solicitor who specialises in IP law if you actually plan to take any legal action in cases like this. Free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it.

Been there, done that. The OTW has a legal advocacy arm, which says:
"The OTW believes that fanworks are creative and transformative, core fair uses, and will therefore be proactive in protecting and defending fanworks from commercial exploitation and legal challenge."

Originally Posted by HarryT

Yes, thank you, I'm very well aware of that. And if it's covered by fair use, it's not copyright infringement, so there's no issue. What we're discussing here are the cases in which it does infringe copyright.

You make it sound like there's some nice bright-line test that will tell a writer when a work that connects to another is or isn't copyright infringement. Where's the line between "parody" and "infringement?" More important--why should any random fanfic writer believe your interpretation over the OTW's? Theirs is supported by lawyers who've studied both the IP landscape and fanfiction extensively.

[Sil_liS]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The area in which we disagree, WritePR, is that of asking permission. I totally accept that fan fiction is harmless in the majority of cases, but it seems very wrong to me not to ask the permission of the right-holder.

I know that I am hanging on the old argument, but you are really having different opinions when it comes to your potential copyright infringement and that of other people.

Originally Posted by HarryT

You may be right, Greg, although I find it exceedingly odd that the law can prevent someone from using a photograph of their own property for a non-commercial purpose, but until the BBC request me to stop using the picture I shall assume that I am right and continue to use it.

So: other people should ask permission to see if they infringe on copyright but in your case the copyright holder is the one who needs to contact you.

[Yapyap]

One issue that is interesting (well, to me anyway)... say, if I want to write Sherlock Holmes or Pride and Prejudice fanfiction. The source material for both is public domain, yes? So that should be okay.

But... what happens if my fic incorporates details from recent film/TV adaptations of those public domain works? Would I need to ask permission from the BBC / whatever studio? What if it's been several years since I read the work and saw the adaptations, and it's all sort of mixed together in my head and I write my fic in good faith that I'm writing it based on the bookverse, but a detail or two has accidentally been influenced by the TV show / film? Or what if I'm writing fic which is actually based on the TV show / film adaptation, but it only ends up using the settings & characters & situations that were there in the public domain work?

I would think that this sort of thing happens all the time - both Austen's work and Sherlock Holmes have a lot of fans, various film and TV adaptations exist for both, and there is a vast amount of fanfiction in both cases, based on the books, based on the various adaptations, or based on a mixture of the original source material and the various adaptations. I'd think it's extremely hard to make any blanket statements about fanfic in those cases being copyright infringement. (I would think that if any of those fanfic authors wanted to publish their work, they should probably check for major overlaps with non-public domain adaptations, but with minor details, I can't imagine it would be any different than with authors being influenced by / using minor details from any other published, still-in-copyright book, film or TV show; published work is full of influences after all.)

[khalleron]

Originally Posted by spindlegirl

It was what is known as a "loaded" question (and there were two of them), and violates the guidelines of this website. "even in the form of a question" is in the guidelines for a reason.

However, I'll accept the apology part. I was very close to encouraging my daughter to join this website because it is "family-friendly". However, I have changed my mind on that one.

Let her join, just be sure she blocks HarryT - he's the only one calling us blood-suckers and accusing you of contributing to your daughter's delinquency.

Seriously, Harry? 'No insult was intended'? What do you say to people when you *do* want to insult them? I shudder to think.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Yapyap

One issue that is interesting (well, to me anyway)... say, if I want to write Sherlock Holmes or Pride and Prejudice fanfiction. The source material for both is public domain, yes? So that should be okay.

But... what happens if my fic incorporates details from recent film/TV adaptations of those public domain works?

Is Jane Austen's Fight Club infringing? (In two directions?)

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Is Jane Austen's Fight Club infringing? (In two directions?)

Hee. Thanks for that link!

I'd assume this would go under "parody" in the US. Possibly. But of course I'm not a copyright lawyer, so for all I know, those nice young ladies in that clip are all infringing every possible copyright law in the world...

[rxmom03]

Originally Posted by HarryT

The area in which we disagree, WritePR, is that of asking permission. I totally accept that fan fiction is harmless in the majority of cases, but it seems very wrong to me not to ask the permission of the right-holder. It's like, say, trespass. I'm probably not doing any harm if I walk across your land, but you probably wouldn't like me to do so without asking you for permission to do so in advance.

I am only familiar with fanfic written about TV shows, but if someone approached the producers, writers, directors (whoever you would talk to about such things) about getting permission to write fanfic, the people in charge would run away screaming. In the world of TV fanfic the writers write their fanfic (and the one cardinal rule is to never charge for it--and secondly to not bring it to the attention of TPTB). And the vast majority of the time TPTB officially say nothing about fanfic, but secretly (and sometimes not so secretly) are excited about it because they know the fans who write fanfic are the kind of fans who buy the DVD's, buy anything connected to their show, go to Comic Con (or whatever con they can find) and generally spend way more money than most people on their show. You can also find shows that have acknowledged fanfic (I watch Supernatural, and boy have they acknowledged fanfic!)

So basically, everyone operates under the polite fiction that nothing is really going on and the writers keep writing and TPTB keep on looking the other way. So actually asking permission doesn't happen.

Mary

[QuantumIguana]

Here's a question. Lets say I wanted to make use of a copyrighted picture, and post that online, say a picture of a Dalek, but I haven't explicitly asked for permission, is that OK?

[covingtoncat73]

Originally Posted by spindlegirl

There is a huge difference between saying in general, "People who write fanfiction are in a grey area that could possibly tread into breaking the law and should think carefully about what they publish." (that is a GENERAL statement)....

and personal attacks and passive-aggressive accusations such as:



The posting guidelines say this:



among other things.

I hold moderators to a high standard, and I expect an apology. To insult how I parent my daughter really affected me greatly to the point where I wanted to leave.

Yeah, that was shameful behavior, especially for a moderator. I will second khalleron's advice to let her join but put Harry on "ignore."

[covingtoncat73]

Originally Posted by QuantumIguana

Here's a question. Lets say I wanted to make use of a copyrighted picture, and post that online, say a picture of a Dalek, but I haven't explicitly asked for permission, is that OK?

Originally Posted by Sil_liS

I know that I am hanging on the old argument, but you are really having different opinions when it comes to your potential copyright infringement and that of other people.



So: other people should ask permission to see if they infringe on copyright but in your case the copyright holder is the one who needs to contact you.

LOL, yes. The hypocrisy there is pretty breathtaking.

[DrNefario]

I didn't think Harry's posts were insulting at all. It's a pretty strong statement of a position, but that's all it is. There are no personal attacks, unlike the responses to Harry's posts.

There is an awful lot of defensiveness in this thread, including some convoluted manoeuvres to try to claim fan fiction is completely legit. Maybe they'd work in court, but they seem to open the door for a number of less innocent things if they do.

My feeling is that it isn't really legal, but is tolerated. I don't see a problem there. Most sites and authors are probably prepared to pull everything if it ceases to be tolerated. (Although it's been on the internet by then; it's probably too late.) They are aware that they are not standing on solid ground.

I think the law is kind of inadequate, although I have no idea how to fix it.

[QuantumIguana]

Originally Posted by DrNefario

There is an awful lot of defensiveness in this thread, including some convoluted manoeuvres to try to claim fan fiction is completely legit. Maybe they'd work in court, but they seem to open the door for a number of less innocent things if they do.

When you're attacked, people fight back. The ones engaged in convoluted manuvers are the people attacking fan fiction. Proponents of fan fiction have admitted that it is a gray area. It is those who attack fan fiction who insist that the matter is clear cut.

My feeling is that it isn't really legal, but is tolerated. I don't see a problem there. Most sites and authors are probably prepared to pull everything if it ceases to be tolerated. (Although it's been on the internet by then; it's probably too late.) They are aware that they are not standing on solid ground.

If you tolerate me walking across your property, and then later tell me to cease and desist walking across your property, that doesn't imply that I had done anything wrong before you gave me that notice. If I have permission, implicit or explicit, then I'm not doing anything illegal. That someone might rescind permission at some point doesn't imply that there never was permission.

Complying with a cease and desist order in no way implies an admission of wrongdoing. Settling a lawsuit isn't an admission of wrongdoing, and a cease and desist letter isn't even in court.

[khalleron]

Originally Posted by DrNefario

I didn't think Harry's posts were insulting at all. It's a pretty strong statement of a position, but that's all it is. There are no personal attacks, unlike the responses to Harry's posts.

Seriously? Did you miss this?

Originally Posted by HarryT

Because the fan fiction writer is a leech, a parasite, a blood-sucker, feeding from the creativity of someone else. If somebody wants to be an author, let them create their own worlds, not steal somebody else's.

Where I come from, them's fightin' words.