"fan fiction "......

[HarryT]

To repeat yet again, there is nothing wrong with WRITING fan fiction; what's illegal is PUBLISHING it without the rights-holder's permission. I didn't invent the law, but I make no apology for pointing out that publishing copyright-infringing works is illegal. I'm rather surprised that you, who claim to be an author yourself, seem to have so little respect for the rights of other authors.

[Yapyap]

I wonder what exactly is considered "publishing" - where does the line go?

If I write a piece of fanfic, by hand, on a piece of paper, and lock it in a drawer, it's clearly not publishing. (Although my heirs may find it some day in the far future and decide to publish it. Is it okay if the source material has become public domain by then, even if I was taking advantage of not-public-domain source material when writing it?)

If I write a piece of fanfic in my journal, is that okay? Even if a curious friend stumbles across the journal and reads it?

If I write a piece of fanfic by hand on a piece of paper or in my journal and show it to my friends, is that publishing it?

If I write a piece of fanfic in my online journal, is that okay? Is it okay if I post it in a private journal? Does it become "published" if I post it in a private journal but the site hosting the blog has a glitch that makes private posts public? Does it become "published" if someone hacks my private journal?

Is it "publishing" if I post it in my online journal that is friends-locked, with only a select group of friends having access?

I assume it definitely becomes "publishing" if I post it in my online journal without locking it, or if I post it to an archive that only allows select registered users to access it. But those intermediate stages between "writing" it and "publishing" it are when I'm really not sure where the line goes between me writing it on a piece of paper (and either sharing it with a few friends offline or having someone come across it and share it with others without my permission) and me writing it in my personal online journal (because, well, keeping online journals and blogs is today's equivalent of keeping a handwritten journal in years gone by).

[WritePR]

Originally Posted by HarryT

To repeat yet again, there is nothing wrong with WRITING fan fiction; what's illegal is PUBLISHING it without the rights-holder's permission. I didn't invent the law, but I make no apology for pointing out that publishing copyright-infringing works is illegal. I'm rather surprised that you, who claim to be an author yourself, seem to have so little respect for the rights of other authors.

And I'm surprised that you as a mod would engage in the name calling, rude accusations and attacks that you did in this thread. You didn't "point out" anything, you went on the attack. Several others called you out on the name calling and you completely ignored it. Being a mod means you set an example for others. It doesn't mean you get to be rude and act superior to your users. Do you realize your nasty behavior in this thread has driven several people off this site? Think about that.

I have a lot of respect for fellow writers. I also know that fanfiction does no harm and that many writers are fine with it, something you were told repeatedly and ignored. If people were writing fanfiction and selling their work, that would be unacceptable.

Writing stories about a beloved show or movie and sharing them with other fans for simple enjoyment is harmless. Most authors understand that. Some even consider it a compliment that they wrote something so many people loved that they wanted to keep it alive after the movie ended or the series was cancelled, and most all fanfiction writers make a point to acknowledge who actually owns the characters they are using. They have TREMENDOUS respect for the authors, and if an author says they don't approve of fanfiction, most actually respect that. You are preaching about something you know absolutely nothing about.

I don't know a single fanfiction writer who profited off their work or who were sued or sent a C&D because of it.

[WritePR]

Originally Posted by Yapyap

I wonder what exactly is considered "publishing" - where does the line go?

Technically, posting it on a website or blog is now considered published. However it's not as if they are getting royalties or anything. Most studios and authors really don't care. They are much more concerned with the BitTorrents, MegaUploads, and Pirate Bays, along with those who sneak cameras into movies, record the whole thing, and sell them. Those things are what are costing them money.

They really aren't concerned with someone who writes a story about one of their movies or TV shows and posts it on a fan site somewhere, especially if it's for a show long cancelled or an older movie. If it's for a current show, some studios even consider it free publicity. It really depends on the show/movie and studio. For example George Lucas is famous for his hate of fanfiction, but Gene Roddenberry embraced it.

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by WritePR

Technically, posting it on a website or blog is now considered published.

Also on a private, locked blog/journal?

They really aren't concerned with someone who writes a story about one of their movies or TV shows and posts it on a fan site somewhere, especially if it's for a show long cancelled or an older movie. If it's for a current show, some studios even consider it free publicity.

Oh yes, I know. And - well, that's really what it is, isn't it? Free publicity. Dedicated fans who do more hyping, spreading the word, getting their friends (which these days may mean a thousand online friends/followers) into it, keeping the interest going in-between releases / seasons, buying up all the official merchandise and so on.

I assume that with TV shows in particular, fans who read fanfic but don't buy and read the official tie-in novels do exist - but it's very unlikely that these fans read the fic as a substitute for the official tie-in books, and a lot more likely that they wouldn't be reading the tie-ins anyway, as they don't offer these particular fans the things these fans want to read about (e.g. alternative universe takes, relationship-focused stories including erotica and non-canon pairings, what-if-scenarios taking an original plot line to a different conclusion, etc).

(Actually, to all of those people here who don't "get" fanfic, in particular why people would actually want to waste their time reading it: tie-in novels. Do you "get" the point of tie-in novels? Do you deride fans of TV shows for reading tie-in novels? They're hardly high-class literature, but enjoying tie-in novels seems, to me, like a legitimate thing for fans of something to do. Tie-in novels are, basically, legitimate, owner-approved fanfic, generally written on a reasonably decent, if not ground-breaking level. Just that fanfic authors have more freedom to play around with possibilities and to explore areas that either contradict canon or take things further, ratings-wise. Tie-in novels are there to expand on primary canon and to offer fans the "more" that fans want; fanfic exists and is read for many of the same reasons, i.e. wanting to expand on canon and to get "more" in that universe, with those characters.)

In any case, I have an easier time understanding authors who object to fanfic because they're themselves so invested in their characters that they don't like the idea of other people taking their beloved characters and writing them in different situations, changing the characters' responses and reactions to things, making the author's heroes out to be the villain and the villain the hero, writing sexually explicit material with the author's characters, etc.

I believe that authors should realise that once they've published their work, they can't stop readers from taking their characters in completely different directions in their imagination, interpreting canon events in a way different from the author's original intention, and so on, but I can understand that authors don't necessarily like it and would rather not have to actually witness the readers' reaction, so they would prefer it didn't exist. They cannot stop people from having imagination and their own reaction to things, and they cannot force readers to interpret plots or characters the same way the author envisioned them, but they certainly have the right to ask people to not write it down and share it with people - and by and large, fans (because they are fans) tend to respect such wishes, when they're aware of them.

What I don't get is authors who are anti-fanfic because they think it somehow hurts their bank account or their ability to make a living. It's just... no. No, it doesn't. Non-profit fanfic, non-commercial fanfic, just simply doesn't; as I said above, it rather tends to have the opposite effect of acting as free publicity and keeping the interest going.

I suppose there is that danger of someone writing fanfic and then suing the author if the author's subsequent work has some similarities to the events in the fanfic, but ... really. You don't need fanfic for that. If someone wants to do that, they can just as well do it based on fanmail they've sent the author (and while the author can always say they never saw the fanfic, which is pretty likely, I'd imagine it's a lot more difficult to argue the author never read the fan letter) or write a non-fiction essay or post their theory on what they think is going to happen in the next book/season. You'd have to ban every public discussion of your books/series as well as publicly declare you will never accept or read fanmail and will send your lawyers after everyone sending you fanmail or discussing on an online forum what may or may not happen in the next books if you want to make sure that particular problem never becomes an issue.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by WritePR

Writing stories about a beloved show or movie and sharing them with other fans for simple enjoyment is harmless.

I'd like to ask you a very simple question: what is so difficult about asking for permission in advance from the rights holder? That would solve all the problems of legality. Just write and ask "may I have your permission to publish a not-for-profit work using your characters". If they say "yes", everybody's happy; if they say "no", you don't do it.

Don't you think that would be an awful lot better than (at best) skirting around very grey areas of copyright law as most fan fiction authors appear to be doing?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Yapyap

Also on a private, locked blog/journal?

Copyright law becomes involved when you create a copy of something (that's what the word "copyright" means - it's about who has the right to copy a work). Strictly speaking it doesn't matter how many copies are involved, or how the copying is done. The very act of creating even a single unauthorised copy is copyright infringement.

Of course, the practicalities of the situation are different, and a rights-holder is much more likely to get upset by you publishing a work publicly on a web site than by you giving a photocopy to one of your closest friends (simply because they're never going to know about the latter), but the law makes no distinction between the two acts.

[plib]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Copyright law becomes involved when you create a copy of something (that's what the word "copyright" means - it's about who has the right to copy a work). Strictly speaking it doesn't matter how many copies are involved, or how the copying is done. The very act of creating even a single unauthorised copy is copyright infringement.

Of course, the practicalities of the situation are different, and a rights-holder is much more likely to get upset by you publishing a work publicly on a web site than by you giving a photocopy to one of your closest friends (simply because they're never going to know about the latter), but the law makes no distinction between the two acts.

Would you care to share the law school from which you graduated?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by plib

Would you care to share the law school from which you graduated?

I'm not a lawyer, but as a software author I am reasonably familiar with the workings of (UK) copyright law, through the practical process of chasing down infringers of the copyright on my software for the last 20-odd years, and having had innumerable conversations with my helpful solicitor about what does and doesn't constitute infringement. Practical experience is a good teacher.

[Yapyap]

What if the creator is dead (but not in public domain yet) and the rights holders are either unknown or the authors heirs, being private people, don't have their contact data easily available?

What if the creator is dead, not in public domain yet in your country, but your website/blog happens to be hosted on a server situated in a country where the creator's work is already in public domain?

If they say "yes", everybody's happy; if they say "no", you don't do it.

And that latter part is what is, by and large, happening anyway - the great majority of fans who are aware of the creator's request for no fanfic adhere to it (there are always a few who don't, but you can't blame "fanfic writers" here, just people being people).

The former is, of course, trickier - as I've said before, plenty of people do only write fic in universes where the author / rights holder has explicitly, in public, said it's okay (or encouraged it), while many others take the lack of a public "don't write fic" as tacit approval.

Frankly, so much fanfic is written by 10-13-year-olds that I'd have a hard time seeing them all go to the effort (or be capable of) of determining the rights holders, finding contact data, sending them personal mail (especially if the authors/rights holders are not local to their country), waiting for two years to see if the rights holder gets back to them, and only then post their drabble on fanfiction.net.

If this makes those kids (or older fans, for that matter) leeches and bloodsuckers and parasites, then so be it.

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Copyright law becomes involved when you create a copy of something (that's what the word "copyright" means - it's about who has the right to copy a work). Strictly speaking it doesn't matter how many copies are involved, or how the copying is done. The very act of creating even a single unauthorised copy is copyright infringement.

Of course, the practicalities of the situation are different, and a rights-holder is much more likely to get upset by you publishing a work publicly on a web site than by you giving a photocopy to one of your closest friends (simply because they're never going to know about the latter), but the law makes no distinction between the two acts.

I was really asking about what "publishing" means, as you were so adamant about "writing" it being okay, but not "publishing" it. But in any case, I wouldn't be "making a copy" of the copyrighted material itself anyway. I might be writing a 100 word drabble which might not even mention anyone by name (yet be obvious to fans what or whom it's about) - if I write that, and then show it to a friend (not a copy of the drabble but the piece of paper I wrote it on, or drag the friend by hand to the location on the beach where I wrote the drabble into the sand with a stick), is that already "publishing"? In the unlikely case that a copyright lawyer stood next to me, would they tell me off for writing that drabble into the sand and showing it to my friend?

[citac]

Don't quote me on this, but I do believe there have been authors who were asked. Some declined, others said yes but don't send it to me. I believe there might be a list of authors on Fanlore or somewhere else that makes it clear who supports fanfic and who doesn't. I know that G.R.R. Martin and Diana Gabaldon are vehemently opposed and that there is very little fic in their universe. My memory is hazy on this, but I believe there was a humorous event where someone asked Wil Wheaton and John Scalzi about fanfiction and the whole thing evolved into a slash fic with the two of them as characters. I would be grateful if someone could find the actual links for that so it doesn't seem I'm inventing things.

I also wonder with shows that have more than one creator, who would you ask for permission, the one who believes it harmless, or the one who wants to stab it with a fork? Or the sole showrunner who is very supportive, or the company that produced it and want to decree that only their interpretation is a valid interpretation and ban all other from existence, even if the different interpretation exists only in your mind?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Yapyap

What if the creator is dead (but not in public domain yet) and the rights holders are either unknown or the authors heirs, being private people, don't have their contact data easily available?

For a book, writing to the publisher is generally the best way to contact the rights holder. I've no experience of movies, but I'd guess you'd contact the studio?

What if the creator is dead, not in public domain yet in your country, but your website/blog happens to be hosted on a server situated in a country where the creator's work is already in public domain?

In that case you're doing nothing wrong but (as with eBooks, for example) it's the responsibility of the user of the site to ensure that they don't download things that aren't in the public domain in their country. If you look at the "Project Gutenberg" site, for example, you'll see this statement:

Our ebooks are free in the United States because their copyright has expired. They may not be free of copyright in other countries. Readers outside of the United States must check the copyright laws of their countries before downloading or redistributing our ebooks. We also have a number of copyrighted titles, for which the copyright holder has given permission for unlimited non-commercial worldwide use.

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by citac

Don't quote me on this, but I do believe there have been authors who were asked. Some declined, others said yes but don't send it to me. I believe there might be a list of authors on Fanlore or somewhere else that makes it clear who supports fanfic and who doesn't.

Yes - I posted that Fanlore link earlier in this thread.

With many currently (or very recently) active authors these days, especially genre authors, if they maintain a web site, it's likely that they've been asked about fanfic in public and that there is some public statement by them about their attitude to fanfic.

But it's really a very small part of "all" authors, and yes, with things with multiple rights holders or especially in areas where the actual content creators (in other words, the people who are most likely to interact with fans, the people the fans are most likely to know about, and the people whose opinions the fans are most likely to care about) are not the actual rights holders, it would get very complicated for the ordinary person to even figure out whom to ask - and while I don't write in such universes myself (with a solitary exception of a crossover with Doctor Who), I don't think it's particularly morally wrong for people to take the lack of "no" as tacit approval.

For a TV show, I guess that yes, one could write the studio - but what are the chances to get a response from the actual rights holder, not a low-level secretary dealing with piles of mail and responding to the best of his/her knowledge instead of running to the head of the company with every question?

[Yapyap]

Originally Posted by HarryT

In that case you're doing nothing wrong but (as with eBooks, for example) it's the responsibility of the user of the site to ensure that they don't download things that aren't in the public domain in their country. If you look at the "Project Gutenberg" site, for example, you'll see this statement:

So I'd be okay with uploading my story (based on a work by an author who is not in public domain in my country but is, for example, in Canada) to the server in Canada, but if I wanted to view my own story or download it, I'd be infringing copyright?