"fan fiction "......

[citac]

Ah, thank you, I must have missed it on my earlier sweep of replies posted while I was offline.

[plib]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm not a lawyer, but as a software author I am reasonably familiar with the workings of (UK) copyright law, through the practical process of chasing down infringers of the copyright on my software for the last 20-odd years, and having had innumerable conversations with my helpful solicitor about what does and doesn't constitute infringement. Practical experience is a good teacher.

Practical experience is a good way to come up with rubbish.

A brief example might illustrate. A few years ago I was involved in a lawsuit in the UK, on a patent as it happens. Both sides employed specialist legal help. The lawyers at our firm were mostly double doctorates, primarily Oxbridge, in Law and usually one of the sciences. Their chargeouts were eyewateringly expensive. After considering all our evidence and all the evidence obtained at discovery they came to us about 2 months before trial and said they weren't at all convinced we would win. Our board decided to go ahead anyway as a retreat could have severely affected the business in Europe. Two weeks before it went to trial the other side settled for $2million in damages and agreed to licence. They were employing equally qualified and expensive help, who had obviously told them that they couldn't win either.

So if Oxbridge qualified Doctors of Law can't determine what will happen at trial you'll forgive me if I take the pronouncements of an untrained, unqualified software author with all the seriousness and authority they deserve?

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Yapyap

So I'd be okay with uploading my story (based on a work by an author who is not in public domain in my country but is, for example, in Canada) to the server in Canada, but if I wanted to view my own story or download it, I'd be infringing copyright?

Strictly speaking you'd be breaking the copyright law of your own country by uploading it. It's not an unusual situation; it happens all the time with eBooks. I doubt anyone would actually care in such a case. Never heard of anyone getting into trouble about it.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by plib

So if Oxbridge qualified Doctors of Law can't determine what will happen at trial you'll forgive me if I take the pronouncements of an untrained, unqualified software author with all the seriousness and authority they deserve?

Absolutely right. You should certainly consult a solicitor who specialises in IP law if you actually plan to take any legal action in cases like this. Free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it.

[plib]

Originally Posted by HarryT

Free advice is worth exactly what you pay for it.

Then why is so much of it offered?

[Yapyap]

I do think it's quite interesting that even the authors who are rabidly, furiously anti-fanfic, comparing people writing fanfic to raping their children or engaging in white slavery and being, basically, the scum of the earth, and declaring that they know with absolute certainty that the people writing fic are breaking the law, haven't as much as tried to actually take anyone to court for writing fanfic.

If they're so certain about it, and feel so incredibly strongly about it as to go on furious rants about it (and risk alienating a big part of their potential fanbase, not just the fic writers but also everyone who has ever read fanfic), I do have to wonder why they stick to just ranting about it and not try to do anything about it.

I don't think Diana Gabaldon for example has even contacted fanfiction.net to ask them to not allow Outlander fanfic (fanfiction.net, the biggest general fanfiction archive there is, does take authors' requests into consideration when contacted directly and doesn't allow fic for certain authors), never mind having a lawyer send out C&D letters - and definitely not taking anyone to court over fanfic, in spite of her outbursts a year or two ago (and she's since even deleted the relevant blog posts, so anyone who missed all the fun has to rely on second-hand accounts of it).

[WritePR]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'd like to ask you a very simple question: what is so difficult about asking for permission in advance from the rights holder? That would solve all the problems of legality. Just write and ask "may I have your permission to publish a not-for-profit work using your characters". If they say "yes", everybody's happy; if they say "no", you don't do it.

Don't you think that would be an awful lot better than (at best) skirting around very grey areas of copyright law as most fan fiction authors appear to be doing?

Why is it so hard for you to understand that most authors and studios simply DO NOT CARE and some even embrace it? Fanfic does not take money from an author and does no harm. You seem determined to ignore that and insist that fanfiction is some kind of horrible crime. It's not. Copyright infringement is almost never an issue unless someone is trying to profit off of their work.

[WritePR]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I'm not a lawyer, but as a software author I am reasonably familiar with the workings of (UK) copyright law, through the practical process of chasing down infringers of the copyright on my software for the last 20-odd years, and having had innumerable conversations with my helpful solicitor about what does and doesn't constitute infringement. Practical experience is a good teacher.

You do realize that not everyone on this board lives in the UK and that laws in other countries might be different?

For example, many works of fanfiction fall under the category of parody, which is protected here in the US and NOT considered infringement of any kind.

[Yapyap]

Frankly, I think DRM removal for personal purposes (which I also do, being the evil, non-law-abiding person that I am) is worse as far as copyright infringements actually harming the rights holder go, compared to writing a piece of fanfic.

A piece of non-profit fanfic is free publicity which costs the author nothing but may bring in more income (by winning the author new fans and keeping a series fresh in the minds of existing readers so that they'll remember it by the time the next instalment is out); removing DRM means that I will have a way to a) make personal backup copies of the book and b) convert them to another format if I happen to switch from my current brand of e-reader, which means that I won't be rebuying the book if the bookseller closes or I switch to another reader.

And yet it seems there are people who don't consider DRM removal for personal purposes (format shifting, backup) a big issue, while apparently a teenager writing fanfic and posting it for free on her blog is doing something really bad & wrong, especially if said teenager hasn't gone to the trouble of getting explicit permission (e.g. from the Japanese studio producing the anime the teen is writing fic for). :-/

(... and now I'm trying to imagine people writing Microsoft for permission to write fanfic about the Office Assistant paperclip, and... well, it would be funny to see the reaction, really. Or asking for permission to write fanfic about nesting functions in Excel. Although I think in the US that last one probably would be covered under the parody clause. Possibly. Unless it's serious fanfic exploring the relationships of the functions and the complications that may arise if non-canon pairings of functions happen.)

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by WritePR

Why is it so hard for you to understand that most authors and studios simply DO NOT CARE and some even embrace it? Fanfic does not take money from an author and does no harm. You seem determined to ignore that and insist that fanfiction is some kind of horrible crime. It's not. Copyright infringement is almost never an issue unless someone is trying to profit off of their work.

The area in which we disagree, WritePR, is that of asking permission. I totally accept that fan fiction is harmless in the majority of cases, but it seems very wrong to me not to ask the permission of the right-holder. It's like, say, trespass. I'm probably not doing any harm if I walk across your land, but you probably wouldn't like me to do so without asking you for permission to do so in advance.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by WritePR

You do realize that not everyone on this board lives in the UK and that laws in other countries might be different?

For example, many works of fanfiction fall under the category of parody, which is protected here in the US and NOT considered infringement of any kind.

Yes, thank you, I'm very well aware of that. And if it's covered by fair use, it's not copyright infringement, so there's no issue. What we're discussing here are the cases in which it does infringe copyright.

[spindlegirl]

Originally Posted by HarryT

To repeat yet again, there is nothing wrong with WRITING fan fiction; what's illegal is PUBLISHING it without the rights-holder's permission. I didn't invent the law, but I make no apology for pointing out that publishing copyright-infringing works is illegal. I'm rather surprised that you, who claim to be an author yourself, seem to have so little respect for the rights of other authors.

There is a huge difference between saying in general, "People who write fanfiction are in a grey area that could possibly tread into breaking the law and should think carefully about what they publish." (that is a GENERAL statement)....

and personal attacks and passive-aggressive accusations such as:

Is it right to encourage your daughter to commit copyright infringement? I'm sure you wouldn't encourage her to download pirated books or music, would you?

The posting guidelines say this:

A rude comment is still rude, even if you follow it with a smiley, "just kidding" or "I'm only joking" or "This is meant to be humorous."

Name calling is not permitted, even in the form of a question, e.g. "X's posts make me wonder how much he believes what he's saying, or if he's just a troll."

among other things.

I hold moderators to a high standard, and I expect an apology. To insult how I parent my daughter really affected me greatly to the point where I wanted to leave.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by spindlegirl

I hold moderators to a high standard, and I expect an apology. To insult how I parent my daughter really affected me greatly to the point where I wanted to leave.

There was no insult intended, and I do apologise if it upset you. It was a genuine question.

[spindlegirl]

Originally Posted by HarryT

There was no insult intended, and I do apologise if it upset you. It was a genuine question.

It was what is known as a "loaded" question (and there were two of them), and violates the guidelines of this website. "even in the form of a question" is in the guidelines for a reason.

However, I'll accept the apology part. I was very close to encouraging my daughter to join this website because it is "family-friendly". However, I have changed my mind on that one.

[Billi]

Originally Posted by WritePR

I don't know a single fanfiction writer who profited off their work

Maybe you're just using another currency? Not money, but feedback or praise or criticism or appreciation or fame...???

(Not that anything would be wrong with this, just for the sake of honesty)