Speaking of editing... - Page 2

Spacejock · 08-08-2011, 04:43 AM

There's proofing and there's editing, and they're two different animals.

Editing is the big picture, mostly structural. Are there too many characters, too many subplots, is the pace all over the map, does the author know how to leave the reader wanting more, etc, etc. This sort of editing is what 99% of writers skip over or ignore.

Proofing is checking for typos and inconsistencies. Does someone's eye colour change from one chapter to the next, are place names spelt the same, etc. (I use British spelling & language and I've seen one review accusing me of 'errors' where it's really just a different convention.)

Editing can make a poor or average book into a good one. Proofing just polishes the thing.

I'm sure most of you know this anyway, but structural editing is the key to finding and keeping readers.

Nancy Fulda · 08-08-2011, 11:45 AM

Actually, structural editing (also sometimes called a critique or a developmental edit) is only one of many types of editing.

For some authors, copy-edits (checking for prose style at the sentence and paragraph level) can be more important than structural editing. It just depends where your strengths and weaknesses lie.

IMO, the entire editing landscape is somewhat confusing because there isn't a standard terminology. Some people use the term copy-edit to mean proofreading. Others use it as a synonym for line editing or even low-level structural edits. Some authors sign up for a developmental edit expecting advice on which paragraphs to cut and are then displeased when the editor suggests combining two characters and changing the ending.

Spacejock · 08-08-2011, 08:35 PM

Absolutely. The last thing you want to do is sign up for 'editing', agree on a fee, and get a report back which is a completely different edit from what you expected.

Native · 08-09-2011, 01:36 PM

I think for the final you need to know and work with your editor. I take part in a critique group that is very good at illuminating misunderstandings and grammar problems, but it happens in disconnected bits and pieces. After my manuscript was "finished," a few qualified members offered to do a more invested front-to-back edit. I purposely chose the person who least "gets" my style, but because we already valued each other's expertise in differing areas, we worked well together.

Nancy Fulda · 08-09-2011, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spacejock

Absolutely. The last thing you want to do is sign up for 'editing', agree on a fee, and get a report back which is a completely different edit from what you expected.

Yup.

Many editors will do the first five pages for free or for a reduced fee, to let you get a feel for their editing style. I highly recommend doing this so you know what you're getting before you shell out the big bucks.

anamardoll · 08-10-2011, 02:05 PM

I think the best editing you can possibly do is read your book out loud from start to finish. Your voice will catch errors that your eyes gloss over. This will (hopefully) catch:

1. Words that should be removed. ("He the then said,")
2. Sentences that flow poorly or go on for too long.
3. Spelling errors that Word can't catch. ("What do you have their?")

VydorScope · 08-10-2011, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anamardoll

I think the best editing you can possibly do is read your book out loud from start to finish. Your voice will catch errors that your eyes gloss over. This will (hopefully) catch:

1. Words that should be removed. ("He the then said,")
2. Sentences that flow poorly or go on for too long.
3. Spelling errors that Word can't catch. ("What do you have their?")

I do that... does not work for me, not with my own works at least.

anamardoll · 08-10-2011, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VydorScope

I do that... does not work for me, not with my own works at least.

Curious. Do you just read "He the then said" out loud and not notice the error?

VydorScope · 08-10-2011, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anamardoll

Curious. Do you just read "He the then said" out loud and not notice the error?

I tend to read what I meant, not what I wrote. I KNOW the story, I KNOW what happens and who says what.

I do catch some stuff as I make many passes through the story, but for the most part with out my editor I am illiterate!

I know I am not the only one, which is why every single book on writing I have ever read all said "get an editor no matter how good you are."

anamardoll · 08-10-2011, 06:07 PM

Hmm. Well, reading slowly works for me and it's also how my mother proofs. Maybe we're just special.

Or, possibly, I can't recite my own stories from memory.

Eisengoth · 08-10-2011, 07:45 PM

I find that, while nothing substitutes for the eyes of another human being (and preferably one not related to you, if you can help it), for myself the best way to catch errors is to change the format I'm reading it in. '

For example, if I wrote it in a Word doc, uploading it to my Sony Reader or converting it so that it can be read in the Kindle Previewer or Calibre changes the whole thing enough that many problems suddenly jump out at me, where I would have completely glossed over them in the Word format.

I hear that printing it out can be useful too, but I try to avoid printing for economic reasons...

VydorScope · 08-10-2011, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by anamardoll

Hmm. Well, reading slowly works for me and it's also how my mother proofs. Maybe we're just special.

Or, possibly, I can't recite my own stories from memory.

I can LOL. Not word for word, but I know exactly what happens and when. I tell and retell the story over and over through out the day/week (well the next section) in my head till I think its ready, then I sit and type away.

Reading out loud helps me proof read other ppls work... just not mine

G J Lau · 08-11-2011, 05:57 AM

Two tips for the self-editing process. One, spell check every time you rewrite a sentence or a paragraph. In Word, it is as simple as block+F7. Two, read you work in extra large font (maybe 150%). You will see the words differently.

Nothing is perfect and none of this helps with content editing. I re-read my novel umpteen times but it was my wife who spotted an incorrect character's name at a critical moment in the plot. Hard to get all those nits picked.

rhadin · 08-11-2011, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spacejock

There's proofing and there's editing, and they're two different animals.

Editing is the big picture, mostly structural. Are there too many characters, too many subplots, is the pace all over the map, does the author know how to leave the reader wanting more, etc, etc. This sort of editing is what 99% of writers skip over or ignore.

Proofing is checking for typos and inconsistencies. Does someone's eye colour change from one chapter to the next, are place names spelt the same, etc. (I use British spelling & language and I've seen one review accusing me of 'errors' where it's really just a different convention.)

Editing can make a poor or average book into a good one. Proofing just polishes the thing.

I'm sure most of you know this anyway, but structural editing is the key to finding and keeping readers.

We may call things by a different name here in the U.S. so it is possible we are saying the same thing but . . .

Actually, there are two types of editing: substantive/developmental and copy. Your "structural" is our substantive/developmental editing. That editing occurs during the writing process and before copyediting.

Copyediting occurs when the author believes he/she has a finished product ready for publication subject to the copyedit and the proofreading. Our copyediting is similar to your "proofing".

Proofreading is the step that occurs after the book has been typeset. Its purpose is to check to make sure that errors weren't introduced during the typesetting and that the typeset version conforms to the final, author-approved copyedited version. It is also a final check for misspellings, but it does not look for inconsistencies other than those differences between the final copyedited version and the typeset version.

For additional information check these blog articles:

rhadin · 08-11-2011, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VydorScope

I tend to read what I meant, not what I wrote. I KNOW the story, I KNOW what happens and who says what.

I do catch some stuff as I make many passes through the story, but for the most part with out my editor I am illiterate!

I know I am not the only one, which is why every single book on writing I have ever read all said "get an editor no matter how good you are."

Reading/seeing what you expect to read/see is very common. It is why there are very few books published that are 100% error free. Of course, some errors aren't really errors, just differences of opinion

. Anyway, I wrote an article on the problem called The WYSIWYG Conundrum: The Solid Cloud. The problem is a combination of seeing what you expect and homonyms. For example, it isn't uncommon to have written there when you meant their and when you self-edit seeing their because you expect it.

08-08-2011, 11:45 AM	#17
Nancy Fulda I write stories. Posts: 700 Karma: 16437432 Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Northern Germany Device: kindle	Actually, structural editing (also sometimes called a critique or a developmental edit) is only one of many types of editing. For some authors, copy-edits (checking for prose style at the sentence and paragraph level) can be more important than structural editing. It just depends where your strengths and weaknesses lie. IMO, the entire editing landscape is somewhat confusing because there isn't a standard terminology. Some people use the term copy-edit to mean proofreading. Others use it as a synonym for line editing or even low-level structural edits. Some authors sign up for a developmental edit expecting advice on which paragraphs to cut and are then displeased when the editor suggests combining two characters and changing the ending. Last edited by Nancy Fulda; 08-08-2011 at 11:46 AM. Reason: typo

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08-08-2011, 04:43 AM	#16
Spacejock Hal Spacejock & yWriter Posts: 125 Karma: 1100412 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Device: Kindle	There's proofing and there's editing, and they're two different animals. Editing is the big picture, mostly structural. Are there too many characters, too many subplots, is the pace all over the map, does the author know how to leave the reader wanting more, etc, etc. This sort of editing is what 99% of writers skip over or ignore. Proofing is checking for typos and inconsistencies. Does someone's eye colour change from one chapter to the next, are place names spelt the same, etc. (I use British spelling & language and I've seen one review accusing me of 'errors' where it's really just a different convention.) Editing can make a poor or average book into a good one. Proofing just polishes the thing. I'm sure most of you know this anyway, but structural editing is the key to finding and keeping readers.

08-08-2011, 08:35 PM	#18
Spacejock Hal Spacejock & yWriter Posts: 125 Karma: 1100412 Join Date: May 2008 Location: Perth, Western Australia Device: Kindle	Absolutely. The last thing you want to do is sign up for 'editing', agree on a fee, and get a report back which is a completely different edit from what you expected.

08-09-2011, 01:36 PM	#19
Native Cozy Bumpkin Stories Posts: 66 Karma: 351904 Join Date: May 2011 Location: Sprague River, Oregon Device: none	I think for the final you need to know and work with your editor. I take part in a critique group that is very good at illuminating misunderstandings and grammar problems, but it happens in disconnected bits and pieces. After my manuscript was "finished," a few qualified members offered to do a more invested front-to-back edit. I purposely chose the person who least "gets" my style, but because we already valued each other's expertise in differing areas, we worked well together.

08-10-2011, 02:05 PM	#21
anamardoll Chasing Butterflies Posts: 3,132 Karma: 5074169 Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: American Southwest Device: Uses batteries.	I think the best editing you can possibly do is read your book out loud from start to finish. Your voice will catch errors that your eyes gloss over. This will (hopefully) catch: 1. Words that should be removed. ("He the then said,") 2. Sentences that flow poorly or go on for too long. 3. Spelling errors that Word can't catch. ("What do you have their?")

08-10-2011, 06:07 PM	#25
anamardoll Chasing Butterflies Posts: 3,132 Karma: 5074169 Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: American Southwest Device: Uses batteries.	Hmm. Well, reading slowly works for me and it's also how my mother proofs. Maybe we're just special. Or, possibly, I can't recite my own stories from memory.

08-10-2011, 07:45 PM	#26
Eisengoth Independent Author Posts: 47 Karma: 36836 Join Date: Aug 2011 Device: Sony PRS-505	I find that, while nothing substitutes for the eyes of another human being (and preferably one not related to you, if you can help it), for myself the best way to catch errors is to change the format I'm reading it in. ' For example, if I wrote it in a Word doc, uploading it to my Sony Reader or converting it so that it can be read in the Kindle Previewer or Calibre changes the whole thing enough that many problems suddenly jump out at me, where I would have completely glossed over them in the Word format. I hear that printing it out can be useful too, but I try to avoid printing for economic reasons...

08-11-2011, 05:57 AM	#28
G J Lau Zealot Posts: 126 Karma: 415116 Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Frederick MD Device: Nook	Two tips for the self-editing process. One, spell check every time you rewrite a sentence or a paragraph. In Word, it is as simple as block+F7. Two, read you work in extra large font (maybe 150%). You will see the words differently. Nothing is perfect and none of this helps with content editing. I re-read my novel umpteen times but it was my wife who spotted an incorrect character's name at a critical moment in the plot. Hard to get all those nits picked.