Crazy page lengths

[Solitaire1]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Bu the number of screen flips depends on the size of your font, line spacing, margins and so on. It's not a fixed number.

I've not paid any attention to page numbers while reading, I have them disabled, so I have no idea how they behave.

I agree about the number of pages being variable. That is why I prefer to make my e-books as PDFs. I set the page size to the same as the size of my screen, thus my ebook will look the same on my reader as it does on my computer. It also allows me to insert a Table of Contents at the beginning of the book so I can go to the specific chapter that I want, since with a PDF the number of pages and the pages where the chapters will fall doesn't change. That's the only real use I have for page numbers most of the time.

Something to consider: Rather than page numbers, why not just use a percentage of the entire book? That way where would be consistency when it comes to where parts of the book fall. As an example, Chapter 7 might begin at around 60% of the book and that will not change despite changes in the books formatting.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Solitaire1

It also allows me to insert a Table of Contents at the beginning of the book so I can go to the specific chapter that I want, since with a PDF the number of pages and the pages where the chapters will fall doesn't change. That's the only real use I have for page numbers most of the time.

Oddly. my ToC's in epub format also allow me to go to a specific location (book, part, chapter, subchapter, etc.) whether using an inline or a pop-up ToC. The popup ToC is a lot handier since you don't need to flip back to the inline ToC. the same can be done in KF8/KFX.

As for percent over page numbers? I prefer percent but people complain that percent does not give you an idea of how much longer to finish the book. Say you are 60% completed in War and Peace and 60% completed in The Old Man and the Sea, it is going to take a titch longer to read 234,915 words compared to 10,800 words.

[Sirtel]

A correctly made TOC in epub will allow you to go to chapters, sections et al also. And it's trivial to make a correct TOC with Calibre.

[Solitaire1]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Oddly. my ToC's in epub format also allow me to go to a specific location (book, part, chapter, subchapter, etc.) whether using an inline or a pop-up ToC. The popup ToC is a lot handier since you don't need to flip back to the inline ToC. the same can be done in KF8/KFX.

As for percent over page numbers? I prefer percent but people complain that percent does not give you an idea of how much longer to finish the book. Say you are 60% completed in War and Peace and 60% completed in The Old Man and the Sea, it is going to take a titch longer to read 234,915 words compared to 10,800 words.

One option that might work is to use screen numbers, meaning which screen you are currently on and then how many screens are in the entire book. If you adjust the formatting of an e-book (say increase the size of the typeface) and the number of screens (both the one you are currently on and the total number of screens) will automatically adjust the numbers including the Table of Contents (whether hard written and/or as a popup in addition to links).

Using War and Peace as an example, if formatted for printing on a standard sheet of typing paper using 10 pitch Courier New with 1 inch margins works out to 585 words per page (assuming an average word length of five characters plus a space). That, in turn, works out to about 402 pages for the entire book. However, reduce the size of the type to 12 pitch and it works out to 702 words per page, with the total number of pages being 335 pages for the entire book.

Of course, most e-book screens are smaller than that and I doubt that people would actually print the book using the formatting I described (I used it because the numbers were easy to figure out), but the same principle would work. I sure that to many readers a screen and a page are the same thing when it comes to reading. To me, both would be easy to understand. It would be like (using the first format example above) "I'm on screen/page 305 and so I've got 97 screens/pages left in the book." It's a simple and easy-to-explain method of showing progress through a book, one that could be easily added to the e-book software as an option.

[DNSB]

Looking at War and Peace on Amazon.ca, I checked a random selection of 4 paperback and 4 hardcover editions. The print editions show page counts of 1831 pages, 1440 pages, 1296 pages and 734 pages for the paperback editions and 1392 pages, 1399 pages, 1140 pages and 928 pages for 4 hardcover editions. Tell me about the ONE TRUE PAGE NUMBERS again...

As for your screen/page 305 and 97 screen/pages to go? That depends on many options though if you are reading on a Kobo, it does show the book and chapter page counts which for a kepub is close to a screen per page. It is not really transferable to another device since someone else may be using a different font, different line heights, different margins, etc. even when reading the same edition of the ebook. That is the only good item I find with Adobe's Synthetic Page Numbers algorithm where page 259 is page 259 regardless of formatting choices.

[Sirtel]

One number to rule them all...

Another day, another argument discussion about page numbers on MR...

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Solitaire1

I agree about the number of pages being variable. That is why I prefer to make my e-books as PDFs. I set the page size to the same as the size of my screen, thus my ebook will look the same on my reader as it does on my computer. It also allows me to insert a Table of Contents at the beginning of the book so I can go to the specific chapter that I want, since with a PDF the number of pages and the pages where the chapters will fall doesn't change. That's the only real use I have for page numbers most of the time.

Wow that feels like a lot of work that fundamentally breaks one of the advantages of ebooks, the ability to reflow the text.

I don't understand why a typical table of contents in ePub or one of the other ebook formats doesn't do exactly what you need? I've never had trouble navigating to a chapter regardless of any changes made to the size of the text.

[Solitaire1]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Wow that feels like a lot of work that fundamentally breaks one of the advantages of ebooks, the ability to reflow the text.

I don't understand why a typical table of contents in ePub or one of the other ebook formats doesn't do exactly what you need? I've never had trouble navigating to a chapter regardless of any changes made to the size of the text.

It's not an issue with a Table of Contents, a Table of Contents should be fine regardless of format. The main reason I use PDF for e-books I format for myself is that it gives me full control over the way an e-book looks on my e-reader. Reflow is not an issue in that case because I format it for the way that I want it to look. It does take a little bit of work but the results are worth it. Plus, it is extremely easy to make PDF e-books using OpenOffice.org (just format it like any other word processing document, and then save it as a PDF).

I've tried other formats a few times and I didn't like the results. As an example, I had an e-reader that was supposed to support RTF files, so I tried it. Unfortunately, it gave me unpredictable results (such as being unable to get it to display a serif typeface). Likewise with EPUB I sometimes get formatting issues such as widows and orphans that I just have to live with.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Solitaire1

Likewise with EPUB I sometimes get formatting issues such as widows and orphans that I just have to live with.

My basic ePub stylesheet includes widows: 1; and orphans: 1;—do not use 0 as that is undefined and in many cases, using 0 will use to whatever the renderer default is (2 or 3 are common).

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by DNSB

My basic ePub stylesheet includes widows: 1; and orphans: 1;—do not use 0 as that is undefined and in many cases, using 0 will use to whatever the renderer default is (2 or 3 are common).

Because the number of lines to consider is 1 less than the setting, so 0 doesn't even make sense.

A setting of 0 (or any CSS error) can cause some renderers to ignore all the CSS.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Looking at War and Peace on Amazon.ca, I checked a random selection of 4 paperback and 4 hardcover editions. The print editions show page counts of 1831 pages, 1440 pages, 1296 pages and 734 pages for the paperback editions and 1392 pages, 1399 pages, 1140 pages and 928 pages for 4 hardcover editions. Tell me about the ONE TRUE PAGE NUMBERS again...

As for your screen/page 305 and 97 screen/pages to go? That depends on many options though if you are reading on a Kobo, it does show the book and chapter page counts which for a kepub is close to a screen per page. It is not really transferable to another device since someone else may be using a different font, different line heights, different margins, etc. even when reading the same edition of the ebook. That is the only good item I find with Adobe's Synthetic Page Numbers algorithm where page 259 is page 259 regardless of formatting choices.

And screen size is not relevant as well for ADE page numbers.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by DNSB

My basic ePub stylesheet includes widows: 1; and orphans: 1;—do not use 0 as that is undefined and in many cases, using 0 will use to whatever the renderer default is (2 or 3 are common).

Using ADE/RMSDK, 0 is the same a 1. I used to use 0. Now I use 1. No difference. But since 1 works, I'll stick with it in case I'm ever using a different program that make not like 0.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Because the number of lines to consider is 1 less than the setting, so 0 doesn't even make sense.

A setting of 0 (or any CSS error) can cause some renderers to ignore all the CSS.

ADE/RMSDK being a stickler for correct CSS does not cause a problem with widows and orphans to 0. It works the same as setting them to 1.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Solitaire1

It does take a little bit of work but the results are worth it.

Still seems crazy to me. But don't let me yuck your yum. I'm sure plenty of stuff I do that's indispensable trip me seems like a bunch of needless work to others.