International Party! (a thread for lovers of languages)

[Freeshadow]

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

Perhaps it looks much harder to you than it really is

You might be true, but on the contrary I', quite sure that it was more than just a handfull of continous mis-spellings of their names, which finally made the Brennan sisters change the official transcription of their names from Máire to Moya (in 2003) and from Eithne to Enya.

@omk3
I forgot to mention earlier, but AFAIK Latin also lacks a word for "no"
Altough I never learned it at school, the sources and excerpts I had been confronted with during law studies (codex iuris civilis) always used reversing of the negotiated facts in such cases.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

Well, my family language, which is Scottish Gaelic, has no words for yes and no.

In Gaelic, you answer a question by using either the affirmative or negative form in the same tense of the specific verb that was used in the question you were asked. For instance, if someone asks you "Am bi thu an siud a-màireach?" ("Will you be there tomorrow?"), you would either say "Bi" ("will be") to say yes, or "Cha bhi" ("won't be") to say no.

That's true of lots of languages, actually. Latin doesn't have words for "yes" and "no" either .

[MacEachaidh]

No need to get defensive, Freeshadow. "on the contrary" of what? I was only chatting.

[Freeshadow]

hm as a point of view being countrary to the way a native speaker's (same as I'm "blind" to certain difficulties of polish) t'maybe a mischoice of words on my side.
If it isn't AS hard, as the looking on transcriptions maks me believe it is... well maybe one day I'm gonna start to learn.

[Ea]

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

the coverage of old dialects: gaelic and ancient norse, but now as i dug deeper into wikipedia I wonder less. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse-Gaels

As the french are concerned: it shall not be forgotten, their share in this cultural jigsaw-puzzle is the bretagne

you might find a book called "the druids" by jean markale worth reading, but I assume all that I'm telling is no real news for a witch.

I actually haven't come across that Wikipedia page you mention. That was interesting. The Celtic cultures of the British isles had by the late iron age/viking age been pushed to the north and the west, and Old English, AKA Anglo-Saxon (a germanic language and closely related to old norse), was the common language of England - and the English celts and the druids were long gone by then

[Ea]

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

Well, my family language, which is Scottish Gaelic, has no words for yes and no.

In Gaelic, you answer a question by using either the affirmative or negative form in the same tense of the specific verb that was used in the question you were asked. For instance, if someone asks you "Am bi thu an siud a-màireach?" ("Will you be there tomorrow?"), you would either say "Bi" ("will be") to say yes, or "Cha bhi" ("won't be") to say no.

(Irish and Manx Gaelic are both part of the same family of languages, and so used to be the same, though in modern times and with increasing numbers of their speakers being native English speakers first, the languages are mutating, and they now tend to use modified forms of the simple "is" and "isn't" to mean "yes" and "no".)

That was really interesting - thanks

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

Perhaps it looks much harder to you than it really is, Freeshadow. But Gaelic (of which Irish is one version) is fairly straightforward once you understand the sounds the letters represent; for English speakers that can be a stumble at the first, because they expect the letters to behave and sound the way they do in English, and they simply don't. (Think "Loch Ness" -- you don't pronounce the "ch" the way you do in an English "church".) But the spelling is quite straightforward, and much much closer to being phonetic than English is, at least!

I think this generally applies to all all foreign languages before you've learned the basic pronunciation rules - and the more different the language is from your own, the scarier it appears. Finnish, for example, looks rather daunting to me And if it wasn't because I've been so heavily exposed to English, I think I'd have found German a good deal easier to speak (well, not learning grammar ... ) English does have a rather unique "sound".

[kacir]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That's true of lots of languages, actually. Latin doesn't have words for "yes" and "no" either .

I was shocked when I was learning English and I learned that at the wedding ceremony the bride and the groom do not answer THE question with affirmative "yes" but with "I do" ;-)

Even in my native language, where the Yes and No are used extensively it is considered impolite to answer with one of those words exclusively. You always have to say "yes, it is so" or "yes I will" or "no mother, we really do not have homework today"

[MacEachaidh]

Originally Posted by HarryT

That's true of lots of languages, actually. Latin doesn't have words for "yes" and "no" either .

Ahh, thanks for that, HarryT. I didn't imagine Gaelic was the only language branch that had no "yes" or "no", but it was the only one I felt competent to speak for.

[MacEachaidh]

Originally Posted by kacir

I was shocked when I was learning English and I learned that at the wedding ceremony the bride and the groom do not answer THE question with affirmative "yes" but with "I do" ;-)

Even in my native language, where the Yes and No are used extensively it is considered impolite to answer with one of those words exclusively. You always have to say "yes, it is so" or "yes I will" or "no mother, we really do not have homework today"

It's in the context of answering a question in a formal ceremony, kacir. A traditional wedding ceremony in English uses the question, "Do you take this {man/woman} to be your {husband/wife}?" In English, an affirmation with the verb is considered a stronger, clearer statement than simply saying "yes", and carries an air of formality and legality.

Another aspect of "yes" and "no" that has always been pertinent to me is that it seems some languages answer a question, especially a negative one, with yes or no based on whether the answerer is agreeing with the intent of the question, and others by whether the question is a correct statement or not. For instance, if you ask someone in English, "Are you not going to the party?", most native English speakers would say "No" to agree with the question and say that they are not going to the party. They might expand it to say, "No, I'm not" or "No, I'm not going". Personally, I've always found that a bit confusing, and I got into a lot of strife when I was a kid for answering things the other way round. If asked that question, I would have said, "Yes, I'm not going." (As in, "Yes, that statement is correct, I'm not going.") That seems logical to me, and when I'm not concentrating on what I'm saying, I still get myself into strife by saying it "my" way rather than "most people's" way. So I was really relieved when I discovered that some languages think the way I do, that I'm not alone in that approach.

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

Another aspect of "yes" and "no" that has always been pertinent to me is that it seems some languages answer a question, especially a negative one, with yes or no based on whether the answerer is agreeing with the intent of the question, and others by whether the question is a correct statement or not. For instance, if you ask someone in English, "Are you not going to the party?", most native English speakers would say "No" to agree with the question and say that they are not going to the party. They might expand it to say, "No, I'm not" or "No, I'm not going". Personally, I've always found that a bit confusing, and I got into a lot of strife when I was a kid for answering things the other way round. If asked that question, I would have said, "Yes, I'm not going." (As in, "Yes, that statement is correct, I'm not going.") That seems logical to me, and when I'm not concentrating on what I'm saying, I still get myself into strife by saying it "my" way rather than "most people's" way. So I was really relieved when I discovered that some languages think the way I do, that I'm not alone in that approach.

in french we have a specific word which is used to answer a negative question in the affirmative. for example if someone asks "are you not going to the party ?" and in fact you *are* going, you would answer "si". "si" means "yes" but only in reply to a negative question ; in all other contexts you would say "oui". i think this cuts down on confusion quite a lot, because if you say "si" it's very clear what you mean, and either of the other options (oui / non) would most likely mean "yes that's corrent, i'm not going" or "no, i'm not".

[MacEachaidh]

Ahh, see, the French are so smart with their language! ;-)

[zelda_pinwheel]

Originally Posted by MacEachaidh

Ahh, see, the French are so smart with their language! ;-)

and to bring us full circle, i could answer that with a negative question construction, "n'est-ce pas", which means something like "isn't it" (in the sense, yes, aren't they / yes, isn't it true.), and is a way of affirming or underscoring one's agreement.

[MacEachaidh]

Oui, zelda, c'est vrai.

(Or: Tha, tha sin ceart, to slip a bit more Gaelic in.)

[Shayne Parkinson]

Originally Posted by FlorenceArt

...In English, "Tree" and "Shaft" are not synonyms as far as I know...

They can be, but that usage isn't common in modern English. "Tree" is an old word for shaft of a spear, or of a tool like a spade. The usage also survives (more or less) in compounds like axle-tree, but as cars replaced buggies and carts, "axle" more or less replaced "axle-tree".

[Shayne Parkinson]

Fascinating subject! I've read through this whole thread, and have learned a lot.

Originally Posted by omk3

Intriguing

Just found an interesting link for Maori learners: http://www.maorilanguage.net/phrase_...ubcategoryid=1
This is a list of hellos, not goodbyes. But it seems to have a lot of detail. There's even one "hello to you two boys"!

Anyone from New Zealand care to tell us more?

Disclaimer: I can't claim to speak Maori, but I do know a few words and phrases, and a very little grammar. Yes, one of the interesting things about Maori is that greetings are different based on whether one, two, or three or more people are being addressed. For example (in the site linked):
Tēnā koe (Hello to you - 1 person)
Tēnā kōrua (Hello to you two - 2 people)
Tēnā koutou (Hello to you - more than 2 people)

But the other items on that page are examples of usage, rather than being specific greetings for specific groups. E.g "Tēnā kōrua e tama mā" - Tēnā kōrua is the greeting to two people, tama means boys. So it's roughly equivalent to saying, "Hello, you boys", with the "two" being implicit in using tēnā kōrua.