International Party! (a thread for lovers of languages)

[ardeegee]

http://www.boingboing.net/2010/06/27...-dif.html#more

[FlorenceArt]

I'm afraid I can't find the link at the moment, but there was a post on Language Log some time ago about how the basic colors are always the same in all languages. What I mean by that, is that if a language has words for only 3 colors, those colors will always be red, black and white (this is from memory, but I'm pretty sure that's it). If the language has 6 words for colors, they will also be the same colors. So there are many variations on details, but somehow there is a basic pattern that is more or less language-independent.

Michel Pastoureau is a French specialist of the history of colors, and his book on Blue has been translated to English. It's very interesting to see that many things we take for granted and universal about colors are not at all universal. Even the scientific facts about colors are, to an extent, conventions. Newton identified 7 colors in the rainbow, but the 7th (is that indigo?) is rather doubtful and he may have added it to arrive at the symbolically significant number of 7. Also, the three primary colors we know are cyan, magenta and yellow, but in fact there are other combinations of three colors that you can combine to obtain all the colors we see. TV and computer screens, of course, use red, green and blue.

Sorry, that was a bit off topic. Should we have a thread about colors?

[Freeshadow]

Originally Posted by HarryT

You are absolutely right, of course, but it does have its uses. Eg, it's through transliteration that we know that a "C" is Latin was always "hard", because wherever "C" occurs in a name in Latin we always have a "kappa" in Greek, never a "sigma".

thx harry
you reassured me that the way (german) teachers (of latin or law and a lot of others) pronounce latin IS consequently wronwrong. I wonder why - maybe because they don't want to end up with Caesar spoken as Käsar and fight their giggling inclasses down
(Käse = cheese)

'th' as long as we leave the runic remains in in icelandic you re right.

@Florence: the only difference is the base (white/black) and operation (+/-) chosen:
the fact that three colours are enough remains untouched

[FlorenceArt]

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

@Florence: the only difference is the base (white/black) and operation (+/-) chosen:
the fact that three colours are enough remains untouched

Yes, that's what I said

[ficbot]

I am wondering if anyone can think of good examples of situational words that are unique to a certain language. For example, in English there is snow, slush and ice but in some aboriginal languages, there are special words for specific types of snow. I am not sure if the old '40 words for snow' story is true of the Inuit language, but I do know there is more than one word. And there are not equivalents to these types of words in English.

I know some Hebrew words too that don't really have equivalents in English. Mitzvah is one. It's sort of a cross between a good deed, an honour and a commandment or obligation, but that is not quite right either as a description. But any Hebrew speaker will know exactly what I mean

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

thx harry
you reassured me that the way (german) teachers (of latin or law and a lot of others) pronounce latin IS consequently wronwrong. I wonder why - maybe because they don't want to end up with Caesar spoken as Käsar and fight their giggling inclasses down
(Käse = cheese)

These days, in the UK at least, there is very much an attempt to use what it believed to be a "realistic" pronunciation of classical Latin, using the best available information. Eg, Caesar's famous triumphal placard "Veni, Vidi, Vici" ("I came, I saw, I conquered") would be pronounced "weny, weedy, weeky".

Unfortunately there are some Roman names that have entered everyday English and had their pronounciations completely mangled, chief among which is "Caesar". In English we pronounce this word "see-zer", whereas the correct Latin pronunction is "Kie-sar". You pronounce it much more correctly in German in your word "Kaiser" which is, of course, a direct German adoption from "Caesar".

When speaking Latin, I'd always say, "Kai-sar", but when speaking English, I'd say "see-zer", or nobody would understand what I was saying.

[TGS]

Originally Posted by ficbot

I am wondering if anyone can think of good examples of situational words that are unique to a certain language. For example, in English there is snow, slush and ice but in some aboriginal languages, there are special words for specific types of snow. I am not sure if the old '40 words for snow' story is true of the Inuit language, but I do know there is more than one word. And there are not equivalents to these types of words in English.

I know some Hebrew words too that don't really have equivalents in English. Mitzvah is one. It's sort of a cross between a good deed, an honour and a commandment or obligation, but that is not quite right either as a description. But any Hebrew speaker will know exactly what I mean

Danish has a word "hyggelig" (which is pronounced something like "who'kerly" would be in English - if you can imagine that), which so far as I can tell has no equivalent in any language. The meaning of the word has something to do with atmosphere - it is often translated as cosy, but that's not quite right, it is broader than cosy. One can be hyggelig sitting with friends on a hot summer day drinking a few beers. One can also be hyggelig alone - imagine getting home on a dark cold winter evening, your house is warm, you make some hot chocolate, light some candles, wrap yourself up in a blanket, take out you liseuse and become pleasurably absorbed in reading - that's hyggelig. One can be hyggelig at a big party, or a small dinner. The pursuit of hyggelig, creating hyggelig, finding occasions for hyggelig seems to underpin much of life in Denmark.

I'm not sure if any of our Danish colleagues are contributing to this thread, but if they are maybe they have a go at defining it. Ultimately I think it is a word which, if you are Danish you know what it means, but if you are not Danish you will never really get it.

[omk3]

TGS, hyggelig seems to be a very nice word indeed! I think I'll add it to my vocabulary

(edit) googling produced this link http://drezito.blogspot.com/2007/10/what-is-hygge.html, which says more or less what you did, with a little more detail. VERY nice word.

[omk3]

Κέφι (kefi) is one such greek word. The word is actually borrowed from the turkish (keyif) -credit where it's due- and I think it means more or less the same thing in both languages. However I can only really speak for the greek usage.

It is a word worn a lot. I can't find one word in another language to describe it. It means having fun, being in a good mood, being full of joy of life, being drunk, feeling exuberant, doing something with zeal and passion... It is very difficult to define, as it ranges from just a good mood to rather passionate extremes. It is also used in many different expressions. Not having κέφι means "I'm not in the mood (right now)", I'm feeling listless, bored. Coming to κέφι means reach a state of merriment, often by drinking. Κάνω (do,make) κέφι someone or something means fancy someone, fancy doing something. Doing something with κέφι means you are doing it with passion. Having κέφια (plural) means being in a very good mood. You can be κεφάτος (kefatos -with kefi) or άκεφος (akefos - without kefi), or when you meet someone, you can ask "how are the kefia?" (πώς παν' τα κέφια; ) as a more casual "how are you". The rather stupid custom of smashing plates is considered an expression of kefi, when the soul and body are overwhelmed with an exuberance that must find an outlet. (that last sentence except for the "rather stupid" part is taken from the definition in about.com)

[FlorenceArt]

Originally Posted by omk3

I can't find one word in another language to describe it.

I have a challenge for you: find one word in any language that can be translated by one word in any other language.

[omk3]

Red, car, tree
Arguably not even such simple concepts are absolutely equivalent between different languages, but there are actually a lot of words that can be translated directly with only slight nuances of meaning lost. There are however a lot, as you say, that just can't.

[FlorenceArt]

Originally Posted by omk3

Red, car, tree

OK, let's ask Google translate...

Rouge

nouns: rouge, cog
adjectives: red, scarlet, ruddy, claret, rufous

(some of these seem a little strange to me, but even if you eliminate those, it's still more than one )

Voiture

nouns: car, carriage, vehicle, coach, wagon, motor, waggon, motorcar

Arbre

nouns: tree, shaft

[pholy]

I think Google got 'shaft' from 'arbor' (as in the arbor of a lathe) not 'arbre'. I should double check, but I'm sure one of you will

If I'm right, that would be one word - no doubt an exception, as English has plethora of words for any shade of meaning

[omk3]

You are cheating a little
Dictionaries always give more options and synonyms, and of course this is a good idea, they have to try to encompass every possible nuance. But in any given sentence, you can often substitute one word with another and have (almost, I know) the same meaning.
I don't mean to say that I don't agree with what you're saying here. But it is different to have one word that can be translated to one of two or three words in another language, and another to have to explain the whole concept in a paragraph.

[FlorenceArt]

Originally Posted by pholy

I think Google got 'shaft' from 'arbor' (as in the arbor of a lathe) not 'arbre'. I should double check, but I'm sure one of you will

If I'm right, that would be one word - no doubt an exception, as English has plethora of words for any shade of meaning

No, in some contexts the French "arbre" (tree) means "shaft" or "axle", as in "arbre de transmission" ("drive shaft", according to Google T). I doubt you could find a correct English translation using "tree", but I'm no mechanics expert.

Originally Posted by omk3

You are cheating a little
Dictionaries always give more options and synonyms, and of course this is a good idea, they have to try to encompass every possible nuance. But in any given sentence, you can often substitute one word with another and have (almost, I know) the same meaning.
I don't mean to say that I don't agree with what you're saying here. But it is different to have one word that can be translated to one of two or three words in another language, and another to have to explain the whole concept in a paragraph.

Well yes, I know what you mean, but those Google translate examples are not synonyms, not all of them anyway. See my reply above.

In English, "Tree" and "Shaft" are not synonyms as far as I know, and yet they can be translated by one single word in French.

I'm trying to point out that even simple words have more depth than we see at first glance.