What is with these Publishers?

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Professional marketers I can see having a role (no matter how much that whole industry makes my stomach churn) publishers not so much.

As I've pointed out previously, the publisher basically provides the financing, expertise and resources that the writer cannot muster on his or her own. Again, you have your goals and perspectives, but most writers -- even ones working for genre or niche publishers like Harlequin or Tor -- have, and will have, greater ambitions than yours, and as such will need access to greater resources.

(And let's not forget that in some cases, especially niche and genres, the publisher has its own brand that can attract an audience. A new Harlequin writer may have a prepared audience that is far larger than what you can amass by putting up a free book on Scribd.)

Originally Posted by Moejoe

If you want an audience, you can build up a pretty decent one just by being honest and offering your work for free in several locations.

Perhaps, but so far I am not aware of any writer who has gone from zero to a sustainable and independent following. It could happen, but until that becomes a routine occurrence, I don't see it as a viable route.

Originally Posted by Moejoe

And the problem I have with experienced professionals is that this is the internet, there's not anybody around who can project yesterday onto tomorrow, especially not within the digital realm. Just look at Twitter and Facebook, a month ago they're the hottest things around, now they're the nearest thing to lepracy.

And yet, the traditional skills and tasks are still relevant, if not every bit as necessary today as they were 20 years ago. Perhaps even more so, as the "professional touch" (both in terms of the work and its presentation) will be one way to rise above the increasingly large crowd of self-publishers, all clamoring for attention.

Besides, as much as you may desire or expect it, blockbusters and hits are not going away, and neither is the infrastructure that fosters them. Even if today's big players all get crushed, it's myopic to presume that larger entities cannot possibly arise out of the ashes.

[Krystian Galaj]

Originally Posted by queentess

Take, for instance, my recent experience with Tor releasing the newest Wheel of Time novel by Robert Jordan/Brandon Sanderson. The hardback came out and I went to Tor's website to ask about the release date for the ebook. I was told the ebook would not be published for a YEAR. Now, why would I wait a year for an ebook when it's available now on the darknet? Publisher just screwed themselves (and their author) out of a sale. And now I buy all Tor books second hand or pirated.

I don't understand this behaviour of publishers. It seems that they have ebook ready, or could have it ready with little preparation, as they are able to release hardback. They don't want ebooks to cut into hardbacks market. Okay. But why won't they release it for a really high price, like 50$? That would change the message "we have it, but you won't get it no matter what you do" into "we don't want to lose on hardback sales, so we're not really sucking up to customers with this one yet, but if you REALLY want it, you can have it". I can think of a few books in the past I'd buy like that, and if I didn't, it would be my decision. As it is, I really can't blame anyone but publisher for keeping the book out of my hands.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by Krystian Galaj

I don't understand this behaviour of publishers. It seems that they have ebook ready, or could have it ready with little preparation, as they are able to release hardback. They don't want ebooks to cut into hardbacks market. Okay. But why won't they release it for a really high price, like 50$?

Part of the problem--only part, but worth considering--is that the ISBN of a book is attached to the suggested retail price. They can't release an ebook at $25 when the hardcover comes out, and lower that price to $8 when the paperback comes out for the same ebook. (Even if the public wouldn't screech at them for the $17 early release fee.) The record-keeping methods include a single price for the ISBN, which means that to lower the price, they have to release a new "edition" of the book.

This can be worked around, but doing so means changing the inventory & accounting methods that have worked for about a century. A bit of foot-dragging is not unexpected.

[DawnFalcon]

Then screw the ISBN system, frankly.
Baen already does, incidentally (And they went via DOI's before they proved uneconomic as well)

People can search the ISBN and find the ebook anyway...

[dsvick]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Part of the problem--only part, but worth considering--is that the ISBN of a book is attached to the suggested retail price. They can't release an ebook at $25 when the hardcover comes out, and lower that price to $8 when the paperback comes out for the same ebook.

The ISBN and the price are only attached to each other if that is the way that the sellers accounting system works. The ISBN contains no pricing information in it, so any relationship between the two is created external to both. Meaning it is an arbitrary relationship that can be changed at any time by the person selling the book. If that was not the case then how could different sellers sell the same book for different prices?

[Dumas]

Originally Posted by Krystian Galaj

They don't want ebooks to cut into hardbacks market.

Presuming that they ebooks and hardbacks target the same market, HB sales could be reduced if a reader were only interested in the author's content. However, if a reader only wants the content, then there is an opportunity for the publisher to make many magnitudes greater profit margin by selling the content in an eBook container.

However, I imagine there are readers that purchase HB because of the container's (HB) look and feel. They want to have that HB on their shelf. They want to see all their HB's in a series lined up. In this respect, the container becomes part of a reader's decor like CyGuy.

Originally Posted by Krystian Galaj

Okay. But why won't they release it for a really high price, like 50$? That would change the message "we have it, but you won't get it no matter what you do" into "we don't want to lose on hardback sales, so we're not really sucking up to customers with this one yet, but if you REALLY want it, you can have it". I can think of a few books in the past I'd buy like that, and if I didn't, it would be my decision. As it is, I really can't blame anyone but publisher for keeping the book out of my hands.

I think the reason they wouldn't release it for a price well in excess of the HB is because they would have a very difficult time making an argument for value.

As others have already suggested, publishers could release the eBook version as the same time as the HB. That would allow publishers to market their HBs as having enhanced value (while incurring no additional manufacturing cost depending on how they chose to do it.)

Those that suggest the eBook be included on SD with the HB are really just introducing a different type of container to the equation. An alternative value-added idea might be to include in addition to the current HB content, a particular author's back catalog as well. This could potentially drive additional HB sales in a print-on-demand environment, or be used to cross-promote similar authors if a back catalog is lacking. I think Baen might already be doing something similar to this.

The publishers' difficulty is maintaining the perception of value in a state of abundance. Instead of working and thinking in the state of abundance and what it can do for them, they are doing everything they can to create scarcity. People are generally resistant to change, and publishers are people too.

(that last part sounds really corny, but you get the point.)

[Dumas]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

Part of the problem--only part, but worth considering--is that the ISBN of a book is attached to the suggested retail price. They can't release an ebook at $25 when the hardcover comes out, and lower that price to $8 when the paperback comes out for the same ebook. (Even if the public wouldn't screech at them for the $17 early release fee.) The record-keeping methods include a single price for the ISBN, which means that to lower the price, they have to release a new "edition" of the book.

This can be worked around, but doing so means changing the inventory & accounting methods that have worked for about a century. A bit of foot-dragging is not unexpected.

Would they have to release a new edition, or could the eBook edition just be valued at some % of the HB MSRP?

[Dark123]

Originally Posted by calvin-c

Other threads have covered this. Until publishers & booksellers open their accounting books we won't have really solid numbers, but most people seem to agree that the cost of paper, printing, etc that's required for pbooks is about equal to the cost of servers & bandwidth that's required for ebooks. Most of the cost is in preparing & advertising the book, not in printing & distributing it-and those costs apply regardless of media.

I read through some of the posts and this caught my eye.
I disagree with it being equals. My .ePub files are roughly 600kb, but for the sake of making it easy lets make it 1MB per file.
If you go to http://www.squarespace.com/pricing/ you will see that their highest plan is $50 a month and they give you 5GB storage. This will be enough for 5,120 eBooks lets round it up to 5,000 eBooks being on the website. (1024MB = 1GB) They give 400GB bandwidth per month.
1024MB x 400GB = 409,600MB again lets round this up to 400,000MB.
They can serve 5000 eBooks to 400,000 people max per month at a cost of $50 a month. If they decided to sell each eBook at a price of $1 they still make $399,950 profit. This all becomes redundant for websites like Amazon, who can already do all of this on top of what they do. I do not know about marketing and advertising just about computing.

I really think they should release eBooks same time as hardcover books and charge like $5 for it instead of the usual hardcover price. When the paperback comes out reduce the eBook price to like $1 or $2.
The best example is iTunes which charge like $1 per song when each is 3Meg roughly.

The main reason I went digital with my books is because of space, I have over a 100books in my room. I have ran out of space on my bookshelf so I had to put some of them into boxes. There is more books I want to read and though it would be better if I went digital.

Wouldn't they actually save money going digital early too? Someone can buy a book, read it and then sell it for cheaper on eBay. They lose money that way. If they went digital with a price of $5 for new books, they would be making more money as the person cannot sell it on eBay. The person who may want to buy it, can buy it new.

Also I know I am in the UK but that web hosting website was in $ and I couldn't be bothered to find the exchange rate so, I kept going with $.

[kjk]

Originally Posted by eBookNewbie123

When the paperback comes out reduce the eBook price to like $1 or $2.
The best example is iTunes which charge like $1 per song when each is 3Meg roughly.

You value one song by an artist as equal to an entire book by a writer, just based on megabytes?

How long do you think an author spends writing an entire novel?

If you think iTunes is "fair", then comparing a novel to a whole CD ($9.99) is more apt.

[dsvick]

Originally Posted by eBookNewbie123

They can serve 5000 eBooks to 400,000 people max per month at a cost of $50 a month. If they decided to sell each eBook at a price of $1 they still make $399,950 profit. This all becomes redundant for websites like Amazon, who can already do all of this on top of what they do. I do not know about marketing and advertising just about computing.

You are absolutely right that the cost of electronically distributing a book is substantially less than the physical distribution, but the point is that there is a sizable amount of time, effort, and money that goes into books well before they get published in any format. And that has to added into the cost of the book regardless if the method of distribution. You also did not include the actual infrastructure (website, ecommerce account, database managment, etc.) to sell and distribute the eBooks, not a huge cost but still a cost.

Originally Posted by eBookNewbie123

The best example is iTunes which charge like $1 per song when each is 3Meg roughly.

That's not really a good example at all, selling a single song from an album would be like selling a single chapter of a book. If you wanted to by an entire album's worth of songs it would cost pretty close to what purchasing the CD would cost, more in some cases. You can buy and enjoy a single song, if the same method was applied to books all you'd do is tease yourself with individual chapters

[Dark123]

Originally Posted by kjk

You value one song by an artist as equal to an entire book by a writer, just based on megabytes?

How long do you think an author spends writing an entire novel?

If you think iTunes is "fair", then comparing a novel to a whole CD ($9.99) is more apt.

I am saying 1 eBook which is in paperback already should be sold $2.
They can take years.
Apples seems to think it's fair they're making nice money from it.

Originally Posted by dsvick

You are absolutely right that the cost of electronically distributing a book is substantially less than the physical distribution, but the point is that there is a sizable amount of time, effort, and money that goes into books well before they get published in any format. And that has to added into the cost of the book regardless if the method of distribution. You also did not include the actual infrastructure (website, ecommerce account, database managment, etc.) to sell and distribute the eBooks, not a huge cost but still a cost.

That's not really a good example at all, selling a single song from an album would be like selling a single chapter of a book. If you wanted to by an entire album's worth of songs it would cost pretty close to what purchasing the CD would cost, more in some cases. You can buy and enjoy a single song, if the same method was applied to books all you'd do is tease yourself with individual chapters

Which is why I mentioned Amazon as they have all of that already in hand. I am not saying go eBook totally, I am saying give the people an eBook option but not at the same price of hardcovers. Take for example of At the Gates of Darkness which is being sold at £9.48 by Amazon, it's RRP is £18.99. Amazon can make their new releases of eBooks at £5 without problem if you factor in they have the website etc.

[Elfwreck]

Originally Posted by dsvick

The ISBN and the price are only attached to each other if that is the way that the sellers accounting system works. The ISBN contains no pricing information in it, so any relationship between the two is created external to both. Meaning it is an arbitrary relationship that can be changed at any time by the person selling the book. If that was not the case then how could different sellers sell the same book for different prices?

I stand corrected.

I gather that it's part of their internal accounting system, rather than any specifically mandated requirement. However, I have some sympathy with accounting systems that list books by ISBN and have a single data field for "retail price;" I can understand that it'd be difficult for a publisher to sort out how to track sales data for the same book offered at multiple prices over time.

Which doesn't mean I don't think they can/should do it--just that, as long as they believe ebooks aren't an important part of their sales, it's not worth their hassle.

The solution is to buy ebooks from small publishers who *do* release them alongside print editions, and send the occasional letter to big publishers saying, "I just bought from your competition because you're not selling what I want to buy."

[Dark123]

Originally Posted by CyGuy

Hey, I'm all for that. If they can find some super-cheap SD cards (like .25 cents for a 2mb for example), throw one in the back of the book! No DRM of course.


Edit: The cheapest SD cards I can find are 16MB for $1.99, but there must be some 2MB cards somewhere for like .25 cents

http://www.amazon.com/Kingston-Class...3415598&sr=1-1
It's a 4GB SD Card for $10.99 is that what you're looking for?

Originally Posted by CyGuy

Maybe I am not the norm here but: I actually like having a paper copy of a book, but I usually wind up reading mostly on my Cybook. I know that sounds contradictory. I have several very nice book shelves at home, and I am very proud of my extensive collection. I like the way they look, the way they smell, the overall feeling of having real books. Yet I usually read on my Cybook. Is this weird behavior on my part?

I like books as well, I like reading them. It has just gotten to a point for me where I am starting to run out of space for them which is why I went digital.

[dsvick]

Originally Posted by Elfwreck

...just that, as long as they believe ebooks aren't an important part of their sales, it's not worth their hassle.

The solution is to buy ebooks from small publishers who *do* release them alongside print editions, and send the occasional letter to big publishers saying, "I just bought from your competition because you're not selling what I want to buy."

I agree 100%.

Eventually as eBooks pick up in volume they will be forced to move to a different method of pricing and distribution, I'm sure it wont be the "sell them all for $2.00" method that some people want, on the other hand it most likely wont be the "wait a year for the eBook" method that some publishers seem to have right now.

[Dumas]

Originally Posted by kjk

You value one song by an artist as equal to an entire book by a writer, just based on megabytes?

How long do you think an author spends writing an entire novel?

If you think iTunes is "fair", then comparing a novel to a whole CD ($9.99) is more apt.

Perhaps the OP was suggesting one method for placing a value on an item that is essentially infinitely abundant.

It is also possible that it could take a song writer/performer the same amount of time to create a song as it takes an author to write a novel.

I don't agree with you last premise. Without going too far back, the music recording industry at one time was based on selling 45rpm vinyl singles. Since they were double-sided, a second song was also offered to provide the appearance of extra value. iTunes is a return to this model minus the B-Side.

As the recording industry increasingly promoted LPs and the album format, they charged consumers more for the product because of all the songs that were now included in the album and thus represented a greater value to the consumer (despite there being little to no increase in production costs but a significant increase in profit.)

I suggest that for your analogy to work along the lines of the CD, readers would have to purchase the book they want along with several others they don't want at an increased cost (after all, they're getting more pages, hence greater value) even though they only wanted one particular book.