What is with these Publishers?

[random50]

Originally Posted by Daithi

Digital publishing changes all of that. You don't need somebody to print the book -- you can do it yourself. You don't need a gate keeper. The public becomes the gate keeper by rating books. You don't need brick and mortar stores for distribution. In short, as far as digital books are concerned, you don't need publishers.

Not quite, I think. Digital books remove the *necessity* for publishers, not the need.

It all depends precisely how you define a publisher.

I think it could be described most basically as the entity bearing the financial responsibility of bringing a book to the marketplace. Ebooks drastically lower the financial requirements to the point where self-publishing becomes viable in practice for every author. The *necessity* of publishers is effectively removed. However, those ancillary services you describe all come at a financial cost. Publishers carry out those additional activities in the belief that they produce a return on investment, a belief I don't think any would argue with. An author looking to maximize their financial reward may therefore need a publisher. (This is before considering that having a link with a publisher opens the possibility of being paid *during* the writing process. This is obviously a pretty major benefit.)

[Daithi]

Originally Posted by ahi

The eReader reality distortion fields is beginning to rival in strength the Apple reality distortion field. So much pointless conjecture presented with such misguided certainty... and it really is getting worse and worse over time.

- Ahi

It's much easier to ridicule someone else's position than it is to actually refute the argument. However, arguing in this fashion doesn't speak well of yourself.

[Dumas]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I think what you're describing there is the goal of 'what used to be' for many writers. The big marketing campaigns, the sales, the reputation that comes from having sold. Who's to say that those are the goals of the writer going ahead? What if you strip out the idea of sales and marketing altogether? What if the writer, knowing what he knows of the economic situation in publishing, knowing that he can't make nice-nice with an audience and spew a lot of marketing bullshit, no longer has set his course for the land of money, fame and recognition?

I'll be honest right now, as a writer what I wanted two years ago is nowhere near what I want today, or what I know I can achieve. Two years ago my plans were roughly in the ballpark of 'get noticed' 'get published' 'get lots of lolly'. Now I don't want any of those things. Through the process of the first - 'get noticed' - I learned that writing itself is the goal, it is the destination and I've already arrived. I seek no recognition or security from my writing, only adventure and possibly an honest response from time to time. I know that I'd (and by extension any new writer) would need 10,0000 dedicated readers to make a living wage, and I also know that isn't going to happen for me. I'd have to give up everything I've gained over the last two years, a lot of my freedoms to get to the point where I could make a living. And, well, the writing is worth more than that to me. I'd guess a lot of writers are going to have the same experiences over the coming years.

Adjust your sails, the water's getting choppy and there's a storm brewing on the horizon.

Are you claiming writers need 10K or 100K dedicated readers to make living wage and on what basis do you make this claim?

Why don't you think it will happen for you?

From the posts you have made in this thread so far, you seem to have the ability to express yourself effectively. Based on the position you take, it seems to me you have already overcome the primary obstacle to actually having a chance in your chosen endeavor.

I suggest that by participating in a forum such as this, you have chosen to interact with potential readers of your work. It might help if you included in your sig a link to your works. You might have a better chance at building a readership and developing a fan base.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Dumas

Are you claiming writers need 10K or 100K dedicated readers to make living wage and on what basis do you make this claim?

Why don't you think it will happen for you?

From the posts you have made in this thread so far, you seem to have the ability to express yourself effectively. Based on the position you take, it seems to me you have already overcome the primary obstacle to actually having a chance in your chosen endeavor.

I suggest that by participating in a forum such as this, you have chosen to interact with potential readers of your work. It might help if you included in your sig a link to your works. You might have a better chance at building a readership and developing a fan base.

The 10k figure is something I picked up in an article on-line and I can't for the life of me find it now. It was one of those articles about self-publishing and the realities of the writer in the digital world. As far as I remember the 10k figure is based upon each one of those people offering up a minimum of $3 over the course of any one year, whether in donations or through sales of t-shirts and merchandising (not through the selling of work). This would give you $30,000 (or mid 20's after tax), a living wage.

As to why it won't happen for me, well, I'm not pursuing that goal, I can't achieve what I don't set out to achieve. I also believe that anything other than being satisifed with the writing itself only detracts away from the writing. If the goal becomes 'attaining x amount of a fan base' or selling 'x amount of products' then what have I become? I'm then a marketer, I'm a promoter, and none of these occupations are what I want from my life or my writing. Writing isn't an occupation to me, it's a drive, a need, as biologically necessary as breathing or eating food. Money, fame, riches, even an audience must be a by-product of the writing itself. If I wanted to make money I'd sell "The Secret to White Teeth" ebooks or "Gain Fabulous Abs in 20 Days" pamphlets.

As to the building of audiences and signatures, well, I usually change my sig from day to day to reflect my mood or what I'm thinking or doing. It's not there to advertise. I'm not an advertiser, and I suck at self promotion and taking compliments.

Sometimes I write a pleasant word or two and these pleasant words form not unbearable sentences. I put enough of those sentences together and I have a story. Sometimes I share those stories with other people. Sometimes. But my writing is not a career. It is not a business opportunity or a gimmick. This not a nine to five kind of thing, this is an every waking moment kind of thing.

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by Dumas

Are you claiming writers need 10K or 100K dedicated readers to make living wage and on what basis do you make this claim?

FWIW, I suspect he is correct. Let's say you are a newly signed author, you get a 15% royalty, and the cover price of your paperbacks (no hardcover for you, Mr No Sales Yet!) is $8. You get $1.20 per copy sold, so 10k sold = $12,000. Write two books a year (which isn't easy), and you're making about the same as the guy working 40 hours a week behind the counter at the Gap, yes?

The shift to ebooks won't change this fundamental dynamic that much, it just makes it easier to self-publish. If you actually want to live off your writing, the advantage is that at least in theory, self-publishing could help you build up a bit of a fan base, and you can then go to a publisher and say "dude, my blog gets 10k hits per week, and my free ebook novellas have been downloaded 100k times." Whether that will actually happen remains to be seen.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

FWIW, I suspect he is correct. Let's say you are a newly signed author, you get a 15% royalty, and the cover price of your paperbacks (no hardcover for you, Mr No Sales Yet!) is $8. You get $1.20 per copy sold, so 10k sold = $12,000. Write two books a year (which isn't easy), and you're making about the same as the guy working 40 hours a week behind the counter at the Gap, yes?

The shift to ebooks won't change this fundamental dynamic that much, it just makes it easier to self-publish. If you actually want to live off your writing, the advantage is that at least in theory, self-publishing could help you build up a bit of a fan base, and you can then go to a publisher and say "dude, my blog gets 10k hits per week, and my free ebook novellas have been downloaded 100k times." Whether that will actually happen remains to be seen.

It's already happening, but you have to be some kind of self-promoting machine like Scott Sigler or have a rolling fan base like the Monster Island guy (being mentioned by BoingBoing doesn't hurt either).

I am neither, nor could I be if I tried.

[DawnFalcon]

Originally Posted by Connallmac

Interesting then that I can send an MSWord doc file or txt file at Amazon and have come back to me a minute or two later wirelessly for $.15 a MB or for free if I want to load it via desktop to USB. The stuff I have gotten back looked about as good coming out as it did going in, in terms of readability. Perhaps this is a decided weakness of ePub?

Not really. Consider the Amazon TPZ files and their weaknesses, rather - that's what happens when you simply scan a manuscript and OCR it.

Anything else is going to take some work to be done professionally, it's not the same as taking a doc file and converting the layout. (DOCX, OpenDocument and ePub are all XML container formats, for reference)

[Daithi]

I agree with MoeJoe. It is really tough to make a living as an independent author. It is kind of like being a rock star or an athlete. I'd like to give credit for this quote but I can't remember who said it, and I have to paraphrase it, but --

Writing is an awful way to make a living but a great way to make a killing.

[Dumas]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

The 10k figure is something I picked up in an article on-line and I can't for the life of me find it now. It was one of those articles about self-publishing and the realities of the writer in the digital world. As far as I remember the 10k figure is based upon each one of those people offering up a minimum of $3 over the course of any one year, whether in donations or through sales of t-shirts and merchandising (not through the selling of work). This would give you $30,000 (or mid 20's after tax), a living wage.

Thanks for that. I'll keep my eyes open.

Originally Posted by Moejoe

As to why it won't happen for me, well, I'm not pursuing that goal, I can't achieve what I don't set out to achieve. I also believe that anything other than being satisifed with the writing itself only detracts away from the writing. If the goal becomes 'attaining x amount of a fan base' or selling 'x amount of products' then what have I become? I'm then a marketer, I'm a promoter, and none of these occupations are what I want from my life or my writing. Writing isn't an occupation to me, it's a drive, a need, as biologically necessary as breathing or eating food. Money, fame, riches, even an audience must be a by-product of the writing itself. If I wanted to make money I'd sell "The Secret to White Teeth" ebooks or "Gain Fabulous Abs in 20 Days" pamphlets.

As to the building of audiences and signatures, well, I usually change my sig from day to day to reflect my mood or what I'm thinking or doing. It's not there to advertise. I'm not an advertiser, and I suck at self promotion and taking compliments.

I agree that there are a lot of activities that could detract from the act of writing itself. It also sounds like you know your strengths and weaknesses. As far as promotion, that is where fan clubs and word of mouth pick-up.

I happened to stumble across a related issue. Zoe Keating is a cellist, composer, looper, and indie success. She is evidently so successful that the music industry doesn't believe her self-reported success. They only believe their own statistics as reported by sales figures measured by Soundscan. They definitely don’t like it that Zoe has done it without them. She has 1.3 Million twitter followers - a bigger audience than Billboard Magazine.

(Read more about and other related anecdotes here.)

Originally Posted by Moejoe

Sometimes I write a pleasant word or two and these pleasant words form not unbearable sentences. I put enough of those sentences together and I have a story. Sometimes I share those stories with other people. Sometimes. But my writing is not a career. It is not a business opportunity or a gimmick. This not a nine to five kind of thing, this is an every waking moment kind of thing.

Based on your clarification, if you made your writing available, then it sounds like an online journal, or if open to comments a blog. If you don't make your work available, then it doesn't really matter.

My point is, if someone did want to succeed in this kind of endeavor, there are a lot more things in their favor now than there were in the past.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Dumas

Based on your clarification, if you made your writing available, then it sounds like an online journal, or if open to comments a blog. If you don't make your work available, then it doesn't really matter.

My point is, if someone did want to succeed in this kind of endeavor, there are a lot more things in their favor now than there were in the past.

My writing is available, you just need to know where to look, and understand that I no longer own that writing I don't read blogs or journals and every time I've set one up I've abandoned it almost as quickly. And if by suceed, you mean monetarily, then yes, there's no doubt that a few people will make bucketfulls of cash, and the ease of digital creation will help them do that.

I'm just bored with that particular idea of success for myself. I believe that every person who puts down an honest word in the pursuit of story or poetry or literature has already succeeded. And to gain an honest response is worth more than all the money that can be printed (that kind of response happened several times for me last year).

[Dumas]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

And if by suceed, you mean monetarily, then yes, there's no doubt that a few people will make bucketfulls of cash, and the ease of digital creation will help them do that.

I'm just bored with that particular idea of success for myself. I believe that every person who puts down an honest word in the pursuit of story or poetry or literature has already succeeded. And to gain an honest response is worth more than all the money that can be printed (that kind of response happened several times for me last year).

I think writing is merely a means of communication whose primary purpose is to transmit ideas. I think most people write for the purpose of communicating with others. Success in this context means the idea(s) being conveyed are received by the intended audience. There may or may not be money involved. I certainly don't believe money is the primary reason why people write.

[Kali Yuga]

Originally Posted by Moejoe

I also believe that anything other than being satisifed with the writing itself only detracts away from the writing. If the goal becomes 'attaining x amount of a fan base' or selling 'x amount of products' then what have I become? I'm then a marketer, I'm a promoter, and none of these occupations are what I want from my life or my writing.

Again, you set your own definitions of success for yourself, and that's fine.

As to "what you become" if you try to build an audience, you become a commercial artist. Artists who have produced top-quality work in a commercial context, without feeling like they've compromised their values or integrity, is far too long to list here.

However, "I don't want to be a promoter" etc is pretty much why publishers -- or, at least, professional intermediaries -- will likely have a role for a long time to come. Many writers simply don't want to take up all the other roles, and/or aren't as good at performing those tasks as an experienced professional.

[Moejoe]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

Again, you set your own definitions of success for yourself, and that's fine.

As to "what you become" if you try to build an audience, you become a commercial artist. Artists who have produced top-quality work in a commercial context, without feeling like they've compromised their values or integrity, is far too long to list here.

However, "I don't want to be a promoter" etc is pretty much why publishers -- or, at least, professional intermediaries -- will likely have a role for a long time to come. Many writers simply don't want to take up all the other roles, and/or aren't as good at performing those tasks as an experienced professional.

Professional marketers I can see having a role (no matter how much that whole industry makes my stomach churn) publishers not so much. I just don't see what their purpose is any longer. If you want an audience, you can build up a pretty decent one just by being honest and offering your work for free in several locations. Sure, you won't make a living, but you wouldn't with the publishers either and there you'd have to answer to a lot more than just yourself and the pace would be a lot slower. And the problem I have with experienced professionals is that this is the internet, there's not anybody around who can project yesterday onto tomorrow, especially not within the digital realm. Just look at Twitter and Facebook, a month ago they're the hottest things around, now they're the nearest thing to lepracy.

Saying all that, here's a few predictions

The book industry collapses in on itself through sheer ignorance and insistence on letting dinosaurs run their business models. From the ashes a few dedicated small publishers start up business alongside independent authors. There is more choice than ever, and a lot of it is damn good. These new publishers don't work like the publishers of old. They don't rely on agent recommendations, they scout talent themselves (as it should have been from the get go). There are no advances, but the slice of the pie is much greater and much more equal - I'd expect the writer to get at least 40-50% under these new deals. These smaller publishers will take more risks, will foster and develop talent and the community that needs to build up around that talent. Across the board more writers will make a 'working wage' and less will be 'super rich'. There'll be a lot of genre imprints, and a very great many of them will sign on with Baen / Webscriptions, which will become a powerhouse of sorts within that genre.

DRM will disappear within three years, as will all 'new super-duper enhanced formats'. ePub will become a defacto standard. Anybody who tries to lock down their format in any way will be ignored. Editors and writer teams will make up the top-hierarchies in these new, digital savvy publishing houses. Also, writer collectives will finally gain traction and becoming publishing houses in their own right. Most agents will have to sell aluminium cans for cents on the dollar, and, if there is any justice, be pelted with rotten vegetables in the street as they pass by. Also, the agents must ring a bell and shout 'unclean' whenever they are in the vicinity of real human beings

[Marcy]

Originally Posted by Kali Yuga

By the way, people are pretty much acclimated to waiting if they want the paperback at a lower price; I don't hear too much squealing when the latest hot seller is only available in hardcover for up to 6 months. I'm not really seeing why ebooks should be automatically be treated differently, especially if you want the publishers to lower the price.

It's pretty well understood that the margins on hardcovers are substantially higher; in fact, the "paper" part of the process generally constitutes far less of the costs of publishing a book than most people realize (~12% or so). It probably only costs 50¢ extra per book to make a book in hardcover form.

The original poster clearly said he was willing to pay the same price the hardback was being currently offered at. The publishers should be totally happy with that -- they make the same amount of money and don't have any productions costs except those they've already paid, i.e. it costs them nothing *extra* to make the ebook.

I'm totally fine with ebooks being the same price as the hardcover for the first 6 months or even a year. But denying availability is silly. By matching the current lowest pricing, i.e. initially the hardcover price and then the paperback price when it comes out, the publishers can only increase sales. People who are willing to pay hardcover prices can buy the ebook right away. Others who always waited for the paperback, can wait for the ebook price to drop. Seems like win-win to me.

-Marcy

[Dumas]

Originally Posted by Marcy

The original poster clearly said he was willing to pay the same price the hardback was being currently offered at. The publishers should be totally happy with that -- they make the same amount of money and don't have any productions costs except those they've already paid, i.e. it costs them nothing *extra* to make the ebook.

I'm totally fine with ebooks being the same price as the hardcover for the first 6 months or even a year. But denying availability is silly. By matching the current lowest pricing, i.e. initially the hardcover price and then the paperback price when it comes out, the publishers can only increase sales. People who are willing to pay hardcover prices can buy the ebook right away. Others who always waited for the paperback, can wait for the ebook price to drop. Seems like win-win to me.

-Marcy

Only happy? I'd say those publishers should be ecstatic! And they don't make the same amount of money, they make much, much more - no material, production, warehouse, shipping, or return costs. Margins are through the roof!

Denying availability, while silly, is all about creating artificial scarcity.

Consider a book as just a container for an author's work be it words, ideas, and maybe illustrations. Most of the time that container has been made of paper, glue, and ink. These containers have hard covers, soft covers, and sometimes leather covers.

You might also consider other creative fields whose containers have consisted of wax cylinders, vinyl discs, 8-tracks, cassette tapes, CDs, VHS, laser disc, and DVDs.

My experience has been that most of the time, the value placed on a work has been determined by the type of container and sometimes the market type/size.

Now consider that a time has come where a revolutionary technology has been developed that has the same capacity for holding words (both written and spoken), ideas, illustrations, and moving pictures. This new type of container requires virtually no resources to create as many duplicate containers as are desired. Since abundance exists, artificial scarcity must be created in order to give monetary value to otherwise free containers/copies.

Denying availability and DRM are essential aspects to creating artificial scarcity. Their sole purpose is to arbitrarily preserve value in the face of abundance.