International Party! (a thread for lovers of languages)

[FlorenceArt]

Originally Posted by omk3

You are cheating a little

Who, me?

[omk3]

Originally Posted by FlorenceArt

I'm trying to point out that even simple words have more depth than we see at first glance.

Yes and I totally agree with that. That's why I believe it's best to be able to think in a foreign language when using it. There's always something, however little, lost in translation.

[Freeshadow]

Originally Posted by omk3

Yes and I totally agree with that. That's why I believe it's best to be able to think in a foreign language when using it. There's always something, however little, lost in translation.

as i already pointed out

[pholy]

No, in some contexts the French "arbre" (tree) means "shaft" or "axle", as in "arbre de transmission" ("drive shaft", according to Google T). I doubt you could find a correct English translation using "tree", but I'm no mechanics expert.

Thanks, FlorenceA - I just checked, and I was definitely confused, and now I can't find in my head the word I thought I was thinking of...

But I did find my old 1941 book _How to Run a Lathe_ - and on the first page is shows a "tree lathe" -- a tree trunk horizontal between two trees, with a rope wrapped around the trunk that goes up to a flexible branch. Presumably you slowly wind the rope, pulling down the branch, then release it and do your work while the trunk spins. I guess that is, indeed, a 'shaft'

[FlorenceArt]

Originally Posted by pholy

Thanks, FlorenceA - I just checked, and I was definitely confused, and now I can't find in my head the word I thought I was thinking of...

But I did find my old 1941 book _How to Run a Lathe_ - and on the first page is shows a "tree lathe" -- a tree trunk horizontal between two trees, with a rope wrapped around the trunk that goes up to a flexible branch. Presumably you slowly wind the rope, pulling down the branch, then release it and do your work while the trunk spins. I guess that is, indeed, a 'shaft'

Well well well, who's cheating now?

[pholy]

Well, I have a couple of French/English dictionaries, but I have no idea where they are, so I used what I could find. I was blown away when I saw that picture. Wish I could show you...

[omk3]

Come to think of it - cheating. How do you express cheating in your language? And what kind of cheating?

In greek there are cases in which we express cheating as stealing (though no actual stealing is implied). When playing cards, you can accuse someone of stealing, for example, meaning cheating, even if no money is involved.

When it's a board game, or children playing, you can say they are doing ζαβολιές (zavolies), which translated back into english would be, erm, something like they are being mischievous?

Cheating in a relationship is απατάω (apatao), almost the same as εξαπατάω (exapatao), meaning to con, to deceive.

So cheating is definitely one word that can't be translated to one simple word, at least in greek

[ficbot]

Cheating can have cultural connotations too---for example, the expression 'cheating death' implies by its nature that one believes death in an entity and not just as a mechanical process.

Do you think it is every possible to truly achieve 100% fluency in a foreign language? Or will there always be small nuances you might not fully grasp? I am thinking of this theory we learned in my old college linguistics class called 'native speakers intuition.' It stated that people have an instinct with aspects of their native language that they cannot duplicate with subsequent languages they learn. For example, you could look at a badly constructed sentence and instinctively know it is wrong, but it someone asks you to cite the rule or to technically explain what the problem is, you might not be able to.

I took the course in 1998 or so and I am wondering if this theory has been debunked since

[omk3]

Interesting that about intuition. I think it is entirely possible to have language intuition in a foreign language - if it can ever be 100% I can't say for certain. But I know I do have some kind of intuition when learning languages, and rely more on it than consciously remembering grammar. I remember when one day I pulled a spelling rule in portuguese out of thin air (can't remember what it was any more, but it was something like "of course this letter can't follow this one"), which no one had ever taught me. It was just my brain having made its own observations and letting me know. Everyone in the class was certain I had learned spanish before, which had a similar rule, but I hadn't.

[FlorenceArt]

Originally Posted by ficbot

Cheating can have cultural connotations too---for example, the expression 'cheating death' implies by its nature that one believes death in an entity and not just as a mechanical process.

Do you think it is every possible to truly achieve 100% fluency in a foreign language? Or will there always be small nuances you might not fully grasp? I am thinking of this theory we learned in my old college linguistics class called 'native speakers intuition.' It stated that people have an instinct with aspects of their native language that they cannot duplicate with subsequent languages they learn. For example, you could look at a badly constructed sentence and instinctively know it is wrong, but it someone asks you to cite the rule or to technically explain what the problem is, you might not be able to.

I took the course in 1998 or so and I am wondering if this theory has been debunked since

Doesn't sound very serious to me Intuition plays a role when speaking a foreign language. Intuition in this case is just a word for acquired reflexes IMO.

I've always been good at learning foreign languages, and I think it's in part due to the fact that these "intuitions" come easily to me. Meaning that I can learn and integrate some grammatical reasoning without thinking about it. I don't know where that comes from, mostly from simple memory probably. I have a good memory I think, but there are things I remember easier than others, and languages are one of them. Other things (especially involving numbers) I seem to forget even before I learned them

When I was a student, I was once accidentally assigned to an English class that was far below my level then. One day in class, a student said something, and the teacher asked us if we thought that a specific form he had used was correct. Every one raised their hand except me. I was right, but when the teacher asked me why I didn't think the form was correct, all I could do was stammer that I didn't like it. It didn't feel right.

I never learned languages by learning the rules. I learned them by listening and reading, and unconsciously working them out and applying them by myself.

Just as we all apply complex grammatical rules in our native language without being aware of it, without even knowing the rules, we can do the same in a foreign language. The only difference is that the probability that we get it right is lower, because instead of applying rules we have been living since we were born or before, we are applying rules that we learned later in life, at a time when we have other things to worry about and where our organism is not so much focused on learning, and where we may be encumbered by the rules and reflexes of our native language. But it's a quantitative difference, not a mysterious gift you have in your native language and can never gain in another. That's my opinion at least.

[ArcticBoy]

Here's my take on this:
In Norway we have 3 official languages: Norwegian, New Norwegian (a dialect based construction) and Sami (spoken by the Laplanders).
Up until 1400 AD we had a common language with Iceland. Our Old Norwegian is very similar to Icelandic. Several hundred years of Danish rule wiped out the old Norse language and replaced it with Danish - today this has turn into Norwegian which is related to present day Danish and Swedish. (and yes, the word hyggelig = "cousy" is also found in Norwegian, but not in swedish where they say "mysigt"). Norway and Denmark share the same alphabet.

Sami is completely different and has its origin from eastern/slavic languages, the alphabet looks more like it is from Slovakia. Common words like mother is "Aiti" which is also found in Finnish.

Back to Norwegian: Ski, Slalom and Fjord are words of norwegian origin.
Also Old Norwegian "Styribord" meaning starboard is used worldwide. As it has nothing to do with stars but rather to stear, and the fact the vikings had them on the right side of their ships, Styribord/starboard is the righthand side of a ship.

As a couriosity, due to foreign immigration, a new streetwise language is beginning to get hold among the young generation, especially in Oslo. We call it "kebab-norwegian" and is influenced by arabic, urdu, punjabi, and hindi. For example "schpaa kæbe" means nice girl, very far off from its norwegian equivalent "pen jente".

Regards,
ArcticBoy

[FlorenceArt]

Hi ArcticBoy, welcome to the discussion!

Assimilating foreign words and expressions into a language is a sign that this language is alive, but it's not creating a new language, although after several centuries of this the language may look very different.

We have a lot of slang words in French that come from the Algerian (which, from what I understand, is itself a language that bears the trace of many different influences, among which the original native languages (still living today as khabyle), arabic, French, and probably many others. Languages continuously reinvent themselves, and slang is often the most creative and lively part.

[omk3]

Welcome ArcticBoy!

Do you learn all three languages at school?
It's fascinating, how languages evolve. Slang is indeed the most rapidly changing part of a language, and it's usually where most words are tested and either discarded after some time or assimilated into more 'formal' speech.

Greek is an old language that has influenced languages all over the world, but has received a lot of external influence itself. You can find many turkish words (some by extension arabic) in greek, as well as several italian, french etc. I do believe all this is making a language richer - analysing a language and the influence it has received, you get a fascinating glimpse into its history, and the history of its speakers.

[Freeshadow]

ArcticBoy, you reminded me of something i once heared about Swedish and Danish: it was the statement that a swedish-speaker would be able to understand danish but not the other way around.

[ArcticBoy]

Originally Posted by Freeshadow

ArcticBoy, you reminded me of something i once heared about Swedish and Danish: it was the statement that a swedish-speaker would be able to understand danish but not the other way around.

I won't brag about Norwegians being able to understand Swedish and Danish better than the Danes or Swedes understand their neighboring countries, but it holds some kind of truth. First of all, Swedish and Danish are more exposed on Norwegian TV than the other way around, even before satellites and cable, Norwegians close to the border tuned into Swedish television. And Denmark has for ages been a favorite place for summer vacation among Norwegians with its lovely beaches. Written danish are almost like written Norwegian. With a little patience and slow-speaking all the Scandinavians can understand each other. I find it kinda stupid when they start to speak English to a Norwegian.

I myself learned Norwegian and New-Norwegian in school, both written and spoken. We also had to read texts in Old Norwegian. In addition we read several books in Danish and Swedish and I even remember we had to listen to Swedish-Finnish (a Swedish dialect spoken by a minority in Finland). Sami is only teached in districts with Sami population (mostly in the northernmost parts of the country), and is also made up of several dialects spanning over Norway, Sweden, Finland and the Kola peninsula in Russia.

Cheers,
ArcticBoy