Arggghhh - No, no, Ryk Spoor! - Page 2

HarryT · 06-03-2010, 07:03 AM

There are lots of words that have different meanings in British and American English. A good one is "momentarily"; in British English this means "for a moment"; in American English in means "in a moment".

I remember I was once on a plane in the US where the pilot said "We'll be landing momentarily in Chicago". To me, this meant that the plane would be landing for a moment, and then taking off again

.

omk3 · 06-03-2010, 07:56 AM

Being Greek, I have seen loads of words I already know being used in other languages. Sometimes they are misused, sometimes they have the ancient greek meaning whereas the meaning in modern greek has changed to something different, sometimes they are plain wrong in my greek eyes. Almost always they are written differently and pronounced differently.

I've learned to regard them as any other foreign word, one that I have to learn more or less from scratch, but that I understand its etymology.

Greek being such an old language, even some greek words spoken by Greeks are very open to debate, and people use them wrong all the time. Sometimes it frustrates me, but languages are evolving, living things in my mind. They will break their own rules and move on. They will 'borrow' words from other languages and make them their own. They will give words back to other languages, and lose all control of them. It is fascinating to watch this process.

Worldwalker · 06-03-2010, 09:09 AM

I suspect "octopi" became popular for practical reasons: "Octopodes" is just too different from "octopus" to sound like its plural. Following the usual English rules of plurals, it would be the plural of "octopode" not "octopus". On the other hand, saying "octopuses" risks spraying spittle on your audience. Probably more important, and no thanks to James Bond movies, it sounds too close to "pussy", whose slang meaning appears to be making its legitimate meaning taboo in polite conversation. People have become nervous about saying it, so they prefer an alternative. "Octopi" does the job.

"Virii", on the other hand, I believe originated in techie jargon (I would have said "hacker" but it would be badly misconstrued in this context). It was created by people who like to play with language just as they like to play with technology, and sometimes get silly with either one. (the extra "i" probably was added because "viri" doesn't look right) If the rest of the English-speaking world decides to adopt a bit of techie silliness, it can work its way into the language (that's how we got "chad" after all). Then we start getting into whether dictionaries are descriptive or prescriptive. Before you go with the latter, remember the etymology of "pea".

FlorenceArt · 06-03-2010, 09:15 AM

It's interesting to follow the evolution of words

In French, the word "icon" is feminine. However, it seems that many people are convinced that this only applies to the traditional sense (orthodox religious image), and that the icons on your computer's desktop are masculine. And of course, if enough people believe this for long enough, it becomes true. I wonder if this is because computer stuff is usually seen as men's stuff? Although I'm sure just as many women use computers on a daily basis as men.

HarryT · 06-03-2010, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Worldwalker

I suspect "octopi" became popular for practical reasons

My objection to it in this particular case is not its common (mis)usage in everyday speech, but the fact that Mr. Spoor has a paleontologist use it in a conversation with a professional colleague. Regardless of its everyday "misuse", I'm absolutely certain that a professional in the field would not get it wrong.

Quote:

(the extra "i" probably was added because "viri" doesn't look right)

Just to note in passing that "viri" is, in fact, a perfectly valid Latin plural - it's the plural of "vir" - "man"; it's not, however, the plural of "virus".

Quote:

Before you go with the latter, remember the etymology of "pea".

Good example!

Sparrow · 06-03-2010, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

My objection to it in this particular case is not its common (mis)usage in everyday speech, but the fact that Mr. Spoor has a paleontologist use it in a conversation with a professional colleague. Regardless of its everyday "misuse", I'm absolutely certain that a professional in the field would not get it wrong.

Octopi is used in "Fish catching methods of the world" by Otto Gabriel, et al.
(£123.49 from Amazon.

- they must be uber-expert authors at that price.)

FlorenceArt · 06-03-2010, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparrow

Octopi is used in "Fish catching methods of the world" by Otto Gabriel, et al.
(£123.49 from Amazon.

- they must be uber-expert authors at that price.)

Well, maybe he's an expert on fish, but octopus is not a fish, is it?

ardeegee · 06-03-2010, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

My objection to it in this particular case is not its common (mis)usage in everyday speech, but the fact that Mr. Spoor has a paleontologist use it in a conversation with a professional colleague. Regardless of its everyday "misuse", I'm absolutely certain that a professional in the field would not get it wrong.

From one of the biggest of the cephalpodophiles:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2...topedantry.php

I'm absolutely certain you are nitpicking.

Sparrow · 06-03-2010, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlorenceArt

Well, maybe he's an expert on fish, but octopus is not a fish, is it?

Pffft, who's side are you on Florence?!?

HarryT · 06-03-2010, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ardeegee

From one of the biggest of the cephalpodophiles:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2...topedantry.php

I'm absolutely certain you are nitpicking.

Bah, humbug. People are happy with "antipodes", so I really see no problem with "octopodes" (which is exactly the same stem). It should, I'd note in passing, be pronounced in the same way as "antipodes", with the stress on the second syllable - "oc-TOP-pode-eez"

omk3 · 06-03-2010, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

My objection to it in this particular case is not its common (mis)usage in everyday speech, but the fact that Mr. Spoor has a paleontologist use it in a conversation with a professional colleague. Regardless of its everyday "misuse", I'm absolutely certain that a professional in the field would not get it wrong.

You'd be surprised. Medicine for example, is full of ancient greek words, many of which even greeks don't instinctively understand, and which follow the rules of ancient greek grammar. It is not uncommon for doctors to get them wrong (I won't even mention students). You can be an expert in your field but not an expert in grammar.

ardeegee · 06-03-2010, 09:55 AM

I can't vouch for how relevant these results are since you can't read the actual articles/papers without a subscription, but a search at Nature.com for the exact phrase "octopi" gives:

* Nature (386)
* Scientific American (93)
* Eye (28)
* Nature News (17)
* Nature Reviews Cardiology (11)

FlorenceArt · 06-03-2010, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

Bah, humbug. People are happy with "antipodes", so I really see no problem with "octopodes" (which is exactly the same stem). It should, I'd note in passing, be pronounced in the same way as "antipodes", with the stress on the second syllable - "oc-TOP-pode-eez"

Good thing I never tried to pronounce antipodes in public!
(Goes to hide under her dictionaries)

Sparrow · 06-03-2010, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FlorenceArt

Good thing I never tried to pronounce antipodes in public!
(Goes to hide under her dictionaries)

You'll have to redo all your poems where you rhymed electrodes with anitpodes.

FlorenceArt · 06-03-2010, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sparrow

You'll have to redo all your poems where you rhymed electrodes with anitpodes.

Aaakkk!

06-03-2010, 07:03 AM	#16
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,547 Karma: 93383099 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	There are lots of words that have different meanings in British and American English. A good one is "momentarily"; in British English this means "for a moment"; in American English in means "in a moment". I remember I was once on a plane in the US where the pilot said "We'll be landing momentarily in Chicago". To me, this meant that the plane would be landing for a moment, and then taking off again .

06-03-2010, 07:56 AM	#17
omk3 Wizard Posts: 1,454 Karma: 37243 Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Europe Device: pocketbook 360, kindle 4	Being Greek, I have seen loads of words I already know being used in other languages. Sometimes they are misused, sometimes they have the ancient greek meaning whereas the meaning in modern greek has changed to something different, sometimes they are plain wrong in my greek eyes. Almost always they are written differently and pronounced differently. I've learned to regard them as any other foreign word, one that I have to learn more or less from scratch, but that I understand its etymology. Greek being such an old language, even some greek words spoken by Greeks are very open to debate, and people use them wrong all the time. Sometimes it frustrates me, but languages are evolving, living things in my mind. They will break their own rules and move on. They will 'borrow' words from other languages and make them their own. They will give words back to other languages, and lose all control of them. It is fascinating to watch this process.

06-03-2010, 09:09 AM	#18
Worldwalker Curmudgeon Posts: 3,085 Karma: 722357 Join Date: Feb 2010 Device: PRS-505	I suspect "octopi" became popular for practical reasons: "Octopodes" is just too different from "octopus" to sound like its plural. Following the usual English rules of plurals, it would be the plural of "octopode" not "octopus". On the other hand, saying "octopuses" risks spraying spittle on your audience. Probably more important, and no thanks to James Bond movies, it sounds too close to "pussy", whose slang meaning appears to be making its legitimate meaning taboo in polite conversation. People have become nervous about saying it, so they prefer an alternative. "Octopi" does the job. "Virii", on the other hand, I believe originated in techie jargon (I would have said "hacker" but it would be badly misconstrued in this context). It was created by people who like to play with language just as they like to play with technology, and sometimes get silly with either one. (the extra "i" probably was added because "viri" doesn't look right) If the rest of the English-speaking world decides to adopt a bit of techie silliness, it can work its way into the language (that's how we got "chad" after all). Then we start getting into whether dictionaries are descriptive or prescriptive. Before you go with the latter, remember the etymology of "pea".

06-03-2010, 09:15 AM	#19
FlorenceArt High Priestess Posts: 5,761 Karma: 5042529 Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Montreuil sous bois, France Device: iPad Pro 9.7, iPhone 6 Plus	It's interesting to follow the evolution of words In French, the word "icon" is feminine. However, it seems that many people are convinced that this only applies to the traditional sense (orthodox religious image), and that the icons on your computer's desktop are masculine. And of course, if enough people believe this for long enough, it becomes true. I wonder if this is because computer stuff is usually seen as men's stuff? Although I'm sure just as many women use computers on a daily basis as men.

06-03-2010, 09:55 AM	#27
ardeegee Maratus speciosus butt Posts: 3,292 Karma: 1162698 Join Date: Sep 2009 Device: PRS-350	I can't vouch for how relevant these results are since you can't read the actual articles/papers without a subscription, but a search at Nature.com for the exact phrase "octopi" gives: * Nature (386) * Scientific American (93) * Eye (28) * Nature News (17) * Nature Reviews Cardiology (11)