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Old 01-31-2010, 07:00 PM   #196
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Thieves create their own justifications, and usually find some way to describe their acts other than theft. You can argue all day with these people, but their perception will never change. In their own deluded minds, they have some kind of right to whatever it is they are stealing, and usually hold resentment toward whom they are stealing from. To think that something a person created should just be considered part of the collective of human knowledge is absurd and sounds like communism.

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Old 01-31-2010, 07:38 PM   #197
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Old 01-31-2010, 08:33 PM   #198
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To think that something a person created should just be considered part of the collective of human knowledge is absurd and sounds like communism.
If they want their creation to disappear without a trace and no longer be part of the "collective of human knowledge", that is their prerogative.

Why the hell would someone want their creation to not be part of the collective of human knowledge? You want your creation to remain unknown? Make a single copy, buy a safe, lock that copy in that safe, put that safe on a container ship, fill that container the rest of the way with concrete, and push the container off the ship at the deepest part of the ocean. There! Your creation will not be part of the collective of human knowledge!
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Old 01-31-2010, 08:53 PM   #199
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Old 01-31-2010, 08:58 PM   #200
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You see, without a smiley or something, it comes across that you're working hard to insult either him or communists, or both.

Communism, taken to it's extreme, just like Socialism or Capitalism, or any of the isms, isn't a good thing and is far from perfect. BUT there are good aspects and points to almost all -isms...a successful culture and society chooses and pics those good aspects and points rather than blindly trying to fit into a category and believe that it alone will solve all ills.

Look at republicans and democrats in the US. Is either party right in all things? Wrong in all things? No...but when they behave as though they are, everyone involved loses. Such is the problem with extremism.
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Old 01-31-2010, 08:58 PM   #201
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ardeegee View Post
If they want their creation to disappear without a trace and no longer be part of the "collective of human knowledge", that is their prerogative.

Why the hell would someone want their creation to not be part of the collective of human knowledge? You want your creation to remain unknown? Make a single copy, buy a safe, lock that copy in that safe, put that safe on a container ship, fill that container the rest of the way with concrete, and push the container off the ship at the deepest part of the ocean. There! Your creation will not be part of the collective of human knowledge!
We hereby declare that 100% of your wages/salary won't be paid to you, but (together with the income from other pirates) will go into a pool to support those who contribute to the "collective of human knowledge". Wait, I guess you are doing that already?
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Old 01-31-2010, 09:16 PM   #202
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Old 01-31-2010, 10:02 PM   #203
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I wonder how many of us use xeroxed documents from books? We think nothing of that. I am in no way saying that downloading someone's unpaid for ebook is ok. Just pointing out that many of us have used/read documents that have been xeroxed w/o compensating the author.
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Old 01-31-2010, 10:20 PM   #204
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I guess this answers many questions about why people steel ebooks. Thread
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Old 01-31-2010, 10:22 PM   #205
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guyanonymous View Post
You see, without a smiley or something, it comes across that you're working hard to insult either him or communists, or both.
Really? Looked like a compliment to me.

On a more serious note, let's avoid name calling, even in jest. It's all fun and games until someone loses an iPod... er... something like that.

(Possibly we moderators ought to offer prizes for the thread that discusses DRM the longest without the participants stooping to calling one another names.)
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Old 01-31-2010, 11:19 PM   #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guyanonymous View Post
You see, without a smiley or something, it comes across that you're working hard to insult either him or communists, or both.

Communism, taken to it's extreme, just like Socialism or Capitalism, or any of the isms, isn't a good thing and is far from perfect. BUT there are good aspects and points to almost all -isms...a successful culture and society chooses and pics those good aspects and points rather than blindly trying to fit into a category and believe that it alone will solve all ills.

Look at republicans and democrats in the US. Is either party right in all things? Wrong in all things? No...but when they behave as though they are, everyone involved loses. Such is the problem with extremism.
I apologize for the lack of etiquette, my last few posts were meant to be satirical. However I disagree with you on communism, for it is an extreme. Extreme socialism in fact, as it completely concentrates power in the hands of a privileged few, who decide with impunity what is best for everyone. No matter the circumstance, this is always the most apparent characteristic of every communist gov't that has ever existed, from Castro to Lenin.

So I apologize again, I should not use the term in jest.
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Old 01-31-2010, 11:44 PM   #207
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Quote:
Originally Posted by perversity View Post
Thieves create their own justifications, and usually find some way to describe their acts other than theft. You can argue all day with these people, but their perception will never change. In their own deluded minds, they have some kind of right to whatever it is they are stealing, and usually hold resentment toward whom they are stealing from. To think that something a person created should just be considered part of the collective of human knowledge is absurd and sounds like communism.
This is the typical emotional propaganda used to justify the current draconian status of copyright and patent law.

However, in cases where the basic nature of "property" and the ability to deprive someone of it, as in "theft" are in question, the onus is on the proponents of IP to justify their position, and not the other way around.

You are the one stating that government enforced monopoly power and control is the ONLY way in which the arts and sciences can progress or flourish, yet you have NO quantitative studies which can demonstrate this, only qualitative and subjective "common-sense" arguments. And, as you loudly trumpet the economic benefit to "artists" and their hangers-on, those of the privileged elite, you ignore the multitude of costs to other members of our society. Can you quantitatively answer the question "Does copyright law, as it currently stands,provide a net benefit to society".

So since common-sense has taken center stage here, let me make use of it as well. Because even though I am not advocating communism, you are the one demanding a social contract. A truly just contract then, would necessarily incorporate a delicate balance of interests between society and the artist. If the artists or their appointed representatives (lawyers), however, choose to circumvent the interests of society, and instead collude with special interest to bind society against its will and/or without its knowledge, then any arrangement arrived at in such a fashion is, by definition, unjust.

The chart I posted earlier demonstrates almost certainly a conflict of interest in the way the social contract of copyright has been handled by those in power. Or who here would be willing to bet against the possibility of new copyright legislation being introduced as we approach 2023? I've got 100 bucks on it.

http://techliberation.com/2009/08/06...ey-mouse-curve

Last edited by schex86; 02-01-2010 at 12:02 AM.
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Old 02-01-2010, 12:37 AM   #208
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An IP Allegory

You live in a neighborhood in which one of the residents, of her own volition, chooses to invest time, money, and labor in the design and construction of an elaborate flower garden. Most everyone in the neighborhood agrees that the garden is beautiful, and they manifest this by regularly strolling by the garden while out walking, and even snapping pictures of the shrubbery and foliage.

But, one day, the garden owner, taking notice of the pleasure others routinely derive from her work, decides she can no longer manage the expense of maintaining her garden without financial compensation of some kind. She mentions this to another of your neighbors, a prominent city councilman, who is a close friend of hers and has been very vocal in his appreciation of her gardening efforts.

The councilman quickly deems that the gardener's concerns are valid, and together the two devise a scheme, I mean, a bill, in which the residents of your neighborhood (including yourself) will be charged a "Parks and Foliage" tax. A large percentage of these funds will go directly to the gardener so that she can feel validated in continuing her gardening.

The councilman slips the bill into one of the monthly council meetings and it is passed without comment. The councilman assures the gardener in private that as long as he remains in his position of prominence the tax will be extended indefinitely, and may even be increased on a regular basis, in the interest of providing further economic validation of the gardner's efforts.

My question is, where are your interests in this social contract? If you chose not to pay the tax once you learned its origins, would that be considered "theft" and if so, who would you be depriving of "property"? If you had enjoyed the garden, and even taken thousands of pictures of it, "hoarding" them in your own photo album, would that somehow obligate you to accept the conditions of the "Parks and Foliage" tax without question?

What should be the maximum penalty for refusing to pay the tax? Death? 20 lashes? What should the amount of the tax be? Is it an arbitrary amount? Who makes that determination?

Is there a point of diminishing returns? Should there be a balance among the interests of all stakeholders? If everyone in the neighborhood refused to pay the tax, does that mean that there could be no more gardens?
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Old 02-01-2010, 12:58 AM   #209
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It doesn't matter how common the thing being studied is in general if you're only studying a subset of the population. Consider: smoking crack cocaine is a disorder, not considered normative behaviour, and comparatively rare in the 'real world'; it is, however, extremely common behaviour in crack houses.
This analogy is only relevent if one is discussing "file-sharing" itself and not a specific behavioural trait with regards to file-sharing in general. I imagine in file-sharing circles/communities, file-sharing is very common just as smoking crack in crack houses is common.

However, just like smoking crack through ones butt hole is not a very common specific behavioural trait, even in crack houses, I wonder if hoarding/compulsive downloading is in fact a common behaviour within file-sharing communities, as is so often claimed or suggested.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pardoz
When you're talking about how many file-sharers are compulsive hoarders, it really doesn't matter what percentage of the non-file-sharing population are compulsive hoarders. And I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that the percentages are much, much higher than the norm in the file-sharing group.
I wouldn't be surprised if the percentage is marginally higher. If my experience, and the experience of those I am familiar with, is anything to go by, I would be very surprised if this increase was enough to be of any statistical significance.

Cheers,
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Old 02-01-2010, 12:59 AM   #210
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Communism at work:

http://googleblog.blogspot.com/2010/...-to-china.html
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