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View Poll Results: Are you a vegetarian? (Now with more options!)
I am not a vegetarian by any means. More BACON! 63 42.57%
I eat meat but I don't do so with every meal. 38 25.68%
I am not a vegetarian but I don't eat meat more than about three times a week. 11 7.43%
I am not a vegetarian but I don't eat beef or pork. Fish and poultry are the only meats I eat. 3 2.03%
I am not a strict vegetarian but I genearlly avoid meat and eat it only about once a week. 7 4.73%
I am a vegetarian but I do eat eggs or dairy products. 27 18.24%
I am a vegan and don't eat any meat, eggs, or dairy products. 6 4.05%
I avoid buying products made from animals (e.g., leather). 13 8.78%
I avoid meat for reasons of religion, conscience, or self-discipline. 12 8.11%
I avoid meat for health reasons. 3 2.03%
I avoid meat for both health reasons and reasons of religion, conscience, or self-discipline. 10 6.76%
I am a vegetarian and don't eat any meat, eggs, fish, or any other form of non-vege items, but dairy products like milk, butter, cheese are ok. 4 2.70%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 148. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-26-2009, 10:12 AM   #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by disney_mommy View Post
I disagree that we are evolved omnivores. Personally, I think we began as carnivores, evolved into omnivores and will continue to evolve into herbivores. We began as carnivores. As we learned to grow fruits and vegetables, adding them into our diets, we evolved into omnivores. As meat has been declared absolutely unecessary for our health, we are well on the way to being herbivores. It is simply habit and selfishness that retains our omnivore ways. There are some of us who have already "evolved" into herbivores. We simply got there faster!



Actually, we of the genus homo, evolved to be the dominant and surviving species of hominids because of our brain power, and that, if I understand evolutionary science correctly, was a direct result of the protein gotten from meat in our diets, as opposed to the exclusive gathering lifestyle of the other hominids that we replaced.

As a species we are omnivores because our predecessors ate pretty much anything that didn't eat them first in order to survive. And survive they did, and flourished, and became the most dominant species on earth mainly because of (originally) what they ate. Because of that evolution our digestive systems can process pretty much any foodstuffs we choose, unlike many other animals who are specialists (like the Panda) and would become extinct if that one food source disappeared because they couldn't adapt.

Because of all this, we are now free to choose what foods we care to eat, what we like and don't like, for whatever reason we might have for deciding that particular way. Our history of being murderers of animals brought us to where we are, good or bad.

I could be wrong about all that, but that's how I learned it.
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Old 06-26-2009, 10:15 AM   #257
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Originally Posted by disney_mommy View Post
Because we are higher in the food chain, does that not give us the responsibility to protect and care for those below us?


On that same thought, wouldn't the same be true of the bear and the salmon? Would it not be the responsibility of the bear to take care of the salmon, instead of eating him, since the bear is higher on the food chain? Or does that food chain reasoning apply only to people?

Also, how do we know for sure that a carrot does not feel? It grows, therefore it is alive. But just because it doesn't have the same kind of brain and nervous system that we are familiar with, doesn't mean it doesn't feel and suffer. We used to think nothiing could live without sunlight too. We were wrong. We used to think the world was flat. We were wrong.
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Old 06-26-2009, 10:15 AM   #258
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Originally Posted by Sparrow View Post
This puzzles me.
If I understand correctly, your view is that you're superior to cats and rats.
So you don't object to the concept of - 'x is superior to y'.

You're happy being 'x'; but when you think you might be seen as 'y', the concept seems to become objectionable to you.

Am I missing something?
Yes: I don't mind being seen a Y as long as I am inferior, if a GOD came out from hiding and professed he was better then me I would be inclined to agree. The same does not apply when people profess to be better them me just because of their dietry choices.
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Old 06-26-2009, 10:18 AM   #259
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Originally Posted by Sparrow View Post
Can we eat meat naturally, or do we have to cook it first?

I know some meat can be eaten raw - (e.g. steak tartare); but I don't know if that's true for all meats.

Maybe we're 'designed' to eat bugs and grubs, rather than cows and pigs.
I think we can eat meat raw, it just tastes better, and is easier to digest cooked, it is also safer as cooking kills off bacteria etc.
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Old 06-26-2009, 10:21 AM   #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Blue View Post
Also, how do we know for sure that a carrot does not feel? It grows, therefore it is alive. But just because it doesn't have the same kind of brain and nervous system that we are familiar with, doesn't mean it doesn't feel and suffer.
I think evolution gave us the ability to suffer pain so we could avoid harm.
If you put you're hand in a fire, the pain makes you take it out before too much harm is done.

A carrot cannot take avoiding action, so I doubt if it ever evolved the ability to 'suffer', since it wouldn't give it any evolutionary benefit.

But, I'm no expert.
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Old 06-26-2009, 10:26 AM   #261
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Originally Posted by Sparrow View Post
I think evolution gave us the ability to suffer pain so we could avoid harm.
If you put you're hand in a fire, the pain makes you take it out before too much harm is done.

A carrot cannot take avoiding action, so I doubt if it ever evolved the ability to 'suffer', since it wouldn't give it any evolutionary benefit.

But, I'm no expert.
Another argument could be that a tomato or banana fx can still ripen after it has been plucked. So there is no indication of it being deeply traumatized.
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Old 06-26-2009, 10:36 AM   #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Blue View Post
Actually, we of the genus homo, evolved to be the dominant and surviving species of hominids because of our brain power, and that, if I understand evolutionary science correctly, was a direct result of the protein gotten from meat in our diets, as opposed to the exclusive gathering lifestyle of the other hominids that we replaced.

As a species we are omnivores because our predecessors ate pretty much anything that didn't eat them first in order to survive. And survive they did, and flourished, and became the most dominant species on earth mainly because of (originally) what they ate. Because of that evolution our digestive systems can process pretty much any foodstuffs we choose, unlike many other animals who are specialists (like the Panda) and would become extinct if that one food source disappeared because they couldn't adapt.

Because of all this, we are now free to choose what foods we care to eat, what we like and don't like, for whatever reason we might have for deciding that particular way. Our history of being murderers of animals brought us to where we are, good or bad.

I could be wrong about all that, but that's how I learned it.
Yes, we did kill animals in the past - when we had to. When it was kill or be killed. But those were different times. We also lived in caves because we didn't know how to build houses. But we found a better way. We evolved. And we continue to do so.


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Originally Posted by Lady Blue View Post
On that same thought, wouldn't the same be true of the bear and the salmon? Would it not be the responsibility of the bear to take care of the salmon, instead of eating him, since the bear is higher on the food chain? Or does that food chain reasoning apply only to people?
The bear is not human. It has no higher conciousness. It can't reason. That is what separates us from the animals, and why we have such responsibility for them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Blue View Post
Also, how do we know for sure that a carrot does not feel? It grows, therefore it is alive. But just because it doesn't have the same kind of brain and nervous system that we are familiar with, doesn't mean it doesn't feel and suffer. We used to think nothiing could live without sunlight too. We were wrong. We used to think the world was flat. We were wrong.
It does not have the same kind of brain and nervous system, because it has no brain or nervous system. Our science is much different than it was when we thought the world was flat. There is very little that is unknown to us now. I am quite confident that if a carrot had a brain, we would know about it.
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Old 06-26-2009, 10:51 AM   #263
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[QUOTE=disney_mommy;503669]

Perhaps I misread that quote, but that was how I took it. And to me, eating children is the same as eating cats or dogs or chickens or cows. I do think that is a sensible question. It was not meant to be outlandish.

/QUOTE]

Just tell me you 'misquoted' here. Please.
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Old 06-26-2009, 11:05 AM   #264
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Conversation has stayed pretty civil, so I'm going to take off my "moderator" hat and put my "participant" hat back on, unless someone objects.

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Originally Posted by HarryT View Post
That argument strikes me as pure sophistry, I'm afraid. You "value life", therefore you categorize anything whose life you do not value as "not alive"?

Doesn't a carrot have as much "right to life" as a chicken? You are claiming that one has a "right" to be alive, but the other does not? Both were brought into existance for the specific purpose of being eaten.
HarryT, I'm actually with you on most of this, but the bolded part seems like a bit of a leap to me. But if this is an evolutionist/creationist thing, I'll just back off and leave it alone.

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I do not say the carrot is not alive because I do not value it. It is simply not alive.

Because the carrot is not alive, it can not have a "right to live."
I have to say, that's an odd definition of "alive." I can see debating whether or not a virus is alive, but a carrot is most definitely alive. (It may or may not be able to feel pain-- there really is some evidence that plants are more active than we have previously thought. Not what I think anyone here would call "sentient," though.)

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It's after all only one aspect of a persons life. It means, that on this specific topic the actions of the vegetarian are morally better.... I don't really get why that is so controversial, we all make immoral decisions all the time from an utilitarian point of view.
This is a really good point, but a lot of people seem to take the position that no one has a right to have an opinion about anyone else's morality (except in areas where of course people have a right to such opinions). I suggested some ways that people in the past have tried to evaluate the morality of actions (utilitarianism, universalizability, etc.) and there were objections even to these abstract ways of looking at issues.

As a culture, we make decisions about the morality of other people all the time. We forbid murder, various kinds of theft, pedophilia, polygamy, etc. I am not directly equating eating meat with any of these. I'm just saying that cultures do make decisions about the morality of individual choices, based on a variety of criteria. The eating of meat is an area where there is less consensus than many other issues. Again, I don't try to convince anyone else not to eat meat, even my own kids. The reasons for which I became a vegetarian are based on moral considerations, but there are a lot of moral areas of life. If I were asked to evaluate the morality of someone else's life (which I generally don't do), choice of diet would only be one part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lady Blue View Post
On that same thought, wouldn't the same be true of the bear and the salmon? Would it not be the responsibility of the bear to take care of the salmon, instead of eating him, since the bear is higher on the food chain? Or does that food chain reasoning apply only to people?

Also, how do we know for sure that a carrot does not feel? It grows, therefore it is alive. But just because it doesn't have the same kind of brain and nervous system that we are familiar with, doesn't mean it doesn't feel and suffer. We used to think nothiing could live without sunlight too. We were wrong. We used to think the world was flat. We were wrong.
These are very good points. I think we don't expect the bear to take care of the salmon because bears lack the ability to plan to the extent required. On the other hand, bears are not generally capable of destroying the environment they normally live in, in part because of this lack of planning. Human beings are brainy enough to seriously hurt the ecosystem we all depend on. To me, that means we need to be more careful of what we do than bears need to be.

Regarding the feelings of carrots and other plants, there is evidence that plants respond to their environments and influence their surroundings, but not so much evidence that they predict or plan, so I suppose at minimum the carrot probably does not feel fear or dread on being harvested. But again, most vegetarians acknowledge that some plants are going to die no matter what-- but more plants will die, in addition to animals, if humans eat animals (because the animals have to eat plants first).

Interestingly, cattle don't actually need to eat grain or other human food sources. See Frances Moore Lappé's Diet for a Small Planet for a review of the historical decisions to start feeding grain to cattle after the "green revolution" created a grain surplus. Cows have multi-chambered stomachs so they can eat cellulose (grass) and turn it into protein.* The result is leaner and healthier for both the cattle and the human eaters. If I were going to eat beef (and I no longer care for the taste or smell, but I imagine that would change if I were starving), I'd feel better about eating free-range grass-fed cattle than pen-raised grain-fed cattle (who also get fed bits of sheep). There's nothing "natural" about the food chain humans have constructed around meat animals.

*Edit to add: when cows eat grass, it doesn't kill the grass. It does kill individual cells, but the plant as a whole generally survives, especially perennial varieties.

Last edited by nekokami; 06-26-2009 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 06-26-2009, 11:09 AM   #265
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I probably didn't use the best word choice there, and did not intend to insult anyone. I meant to imply that people have been doing things a certain way for a long time, and habits are hard to break.
Fair enough.

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I do not believe plants are "alive" as animals and humans are.
Just because they don't run away and scream, does not make them not 'alive', Flowers can be seen to move during the day as they track the movement of the sun. So plants do react to their environment, just a lot slower than animals.
As a side point, if they are not 'alive' what are they, I don't think 'dead' fits either?

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And to me, eating children is the same as eating cats or dogs or chickens or cows. I do think that is a sensible question.
I infer from this that Children have the same standing as chickens - so I would like to ask a question which is off topic and a bit contentious - so I understand if you ignore it....

If a child and a chicken were both drowning (I don't think chickens can swim...) which would you save and why?

Also - I was serious about wasting meat because we are not allowed to eat horse, if we were allowed to do such things ( as eat animals other than the 'norm' ), then maybe we would not have to 'force grow' animals as much to fill in the meat supply gap. (just a thought)

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Another argument could be that a tomato or banana fx can still ripen after it has been plucked. So there is no indication of it being deeply traumatized.
Good point; but I believe parts of the body like hair and nails continue to grow after death on animals (including people here)
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Old 06-26-2009, 11:10 AM   #266
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Question: if meat could be grown as cellular tissue in vitro, so that it could be harvested without killing any animals, how many of you who identify as vegetarians would have an ethical problem with eating it? (Let's assume, for the moment, that this could be done in a way that produced "meat" that really was just as healthy and tasted the same as the real thing.)
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Old 06-26-2009, 11:12 AM   #267
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How about cannibalism?

(Omitted from the poll I notice.)
"If the Great Juju hadn't meant for us to eat people, he wouldn't have made us of meat!" -- From "The Reluctant Cannibal" by Flanders and Swann (See the lyrics here, or listen to a free streamed MP3 here)

A great song, which turns accepted Western thought on its head... in a very amusing way.

Xenophon

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Old 06-26-2009, 11:14 AM   #268
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I'd feel better about eating free-range grass-fed cattle than pen-raised grain-fed cattle (who also get fed bits of sheep). There's nothing "natural" about the food chain humans have constructed around meat animals.
I agree with this wholeheartedley, I just can't afford it... ( and I'm not sure it's readily available to be really honest).

(Un) Realistically I would like to have a smallholding and raise my own meat in a nice and friendly fashion, but land prices being what they are over here (because of Barratts obsession with covering every square inch with concreete and houses)....
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Old 06-26-2009, 11:15 AM   #269
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Originally Posted by Icarusbop View Post
Good point; but I believe parts of the body like hair and nails continue to grow after death on animals (including people here)
That's a myth...

http://www.snopes.com/science/nailgrow.asp
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Old 06-26-2009, 11:15 AM   #270
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Question: if meat could be grown as cellular tissue in vitro, so that it could be harvested without killing any animals, how many of you who identify as vegetarians would have an ethical problem with eating it? (Let's assume, for the moment, that this could be done in a way that produced "meat" that really was just as healthy and tasted the same as the real thing.)
Yum, Yum - I think they are currently working on this are they not?
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