Amazon removed books from my Kindle

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by John F

All true.

Not true. For you (and Jon) maybe, for anybody/everybody else, no.

What I mean is that if SendToKindle/Whispersync/Kindle Unlimited/Prime or Kindle App is the main thing, then sideloading is unlikely to be ever needed for almost everyone.

If you sideload all your ebooks, even ones bought on Amazon (which doesn't need DRM removed if same Kindle as in downloads) what do you need the Kindle WiFi for? It will mess up covers, collections, gratuitously upgrade firmware or switch settings in firmware and potentially accidentally remove ebooks. You've agreed the browser/wiki is abysmal.

There are of course edge cases such as news feeds via Calibre as these only work properly in mobi format and no longer work on Send to Kindle, and possibly people that have private documents and care about privacy, or those work on kindle eink, but not via Send to Kindle. Actually, none of the people I know still using Kindles side load at all. Others have switched to Kobo, so have to sideload ebooks bought on Amazon.

That's almost no app users, who are the majority, and few Kindle eink users.

[neil_swann80]

Originally Posted by Quoth

If you sideload all your ebooks, even ones bought on Amazon (which doesn't need DRM removed if same Kindle as in downloads) what do you need the Kindle WiFi for? It will mess up covers, collections, gratuitously upgrade firmware or switch settings in firmware and potentially accidentally remove ebooks. You've agreed the browser/wiki is abysmal.

Exactly this. If you sideload and need to use WIFI regularly a Kindle doesn't seem like a good choice. Sideloaded books vanishing is the only argument needed to defend that position.

[John F]

Originally Posted by neil_swann80

Exactly this. If you sideload and need to use WIFI regularly a Kindle doesn't seem like a good choice. Sideloaded books vanishing is the only argument needed to defend that position.

Why? I thought the theory was if you use wifi regularly and sideloaded, books wouldn't be deleted (click would regularly be updated, so no problems).

[John F]

Originally Posted by Quoth

What I mean is that if SendToKindle/Whispersync/Kindle Unlimited/Prime or Kindle App is the main thing, then sideloading is unlikely to be ever needed for almost everyone.

If you sideload all your ebooks, even ones bought on Amazon (which doesn't need DRM removed if same Kindle as in downloads) what do you need the Kindle WiFi for? It will mess up covers, collections, gratuitously upgrade firmware or switch settings in firmware and potentially accidentally remove ebooks. You've agreed the browser/wiki is abysmal.

There are of course edge cases such as news feeds via Calibre as these only work properly in mobi format and no longer work on Send to Kindle, and possibly people that have private documents and care about privacy, or those work on kindle eink, but not via Send to Kindle. Actually, none of the people I know still using Kindles side load at all. Others have switched to Kobo, so have to sideload ebooks bought on Amazon.

That's almost no app users, who are the majority, and few Kindle eink users.

You seem to be projecting your preferences. Maybe people like to mix and match? Buy some books from other stores, but also use Amazon at other times, like library books, samples, pocket, ...

I think your "edge cases" may be larger then you think.

[haertig]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

You're certain that's your main reason? Because attributing something to malice that's easily explained by incompetence, the slow grinding wheels of workplace bureaucracy--or any other number of non-malicious possibilities, really--seems a bit myopic.

It appears that you did not read my post before responding to it. I will quote the words I wrote that make your words above look rather ignorant:

Originally Posted by haertig

"Intentional" is not a synonym for "malicious". It could just be misguided logic. Or it could be just a stupid thing to do, that they didn't think through initially.

The only myopic thing I see here is your rush to denigrate my comments, and while attempting to do so, making yourself look foolish.

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

What's the financial benefit for greedy, evil Amazon in purposely deleting side-loaded books from the devices of the miniscule number of users who sideload books AND leave their WiFi off for large swathes of time?

I didn't say that they did.

But there is indeed a motive that might conceivably fit the scenario. It is exhibited by this quote from a forum member posting in this very thread:

Originally Posted by TheSmitty

However, all my books are bought from Amazon so it is not an issue for me.

The statement above implies that if you buy only from Amazon, you will not have to worry about content deletion. Surely you can imagine how that practice might create some financial benefit for Amazon?

[j.p.s]

Originally Posted by haertig

And it has also been suggested/implied that this may be intentional. See your own post #116 in this thread.

No I didn't miss it. But if someone makes a suggestion, is that supposed to be the end-all answer and close the issue to any further discussion?

Spoiler:

Personally, I would think that any company worth their salt would take seriously users concerns that their data is being deleted from their devices, if that company did not intend to do that. Furthermore, there are many in this thread who report it happening to them. So the problem appears to be repeatable. And not all that rare. There are probably precious few places in Amazons Kindle software where the code actually deletes anything. It should be pretty straightforward for a software developer to be able to backtrack from those places and trace down a triggering event. This does not feel like a corruption issue where there was no coded "delete" operation in play. Everything on the Kindle appears fine from reports I have read - except for the deleted content. Those are not the footprints of a random corruption issue.

So FWIW, even though "it's been suggested" that this is a bug, I am not in total agreement with that suggestion quite yet. My main reason being that it does not appear to be a bug by the way Amazon is treating it. They seem to be ignoring it. A bug that deletes user data? That's a heck of a thing to ignore, even for Amazon. This does not pass the smell test. From what people have reported in this thread, I think the deletion is intentional. That's just my theory. "Intentional" is not a synonym for "malicious". It could just be misguided logic. Or it could be just a stupid thing to do, that they didn't think through initially.

I agree that amazon is becoming increasingly cavalier about deleting user content, but as more descriptions come in and get discussed it looks like some kind of sync bug, possibly clock drift releated. The on kindle databases have a large number of columns, several of which are date-time related.

amazon has always been slow to even acknowledge a bug even exists unless it is affecting a lot of people in a serious way.

I suspect kindle firmware and associated server software is extremely convoluted and prone to unexpected side effects and downright incorrect logic. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of kindle code assumes negligible clock drift since last sync and also that clock sync is not the top priority upon internet connection.

If punishment for failure to go out of airplane mode often enough is the intent, why not make it clear that staying in airplane mode "too long" is dangerous? The naggings to connect don't seem to have any threats.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Quoth

So if you are sideloading ebooks there is no need to use the WiFi, ever.

Originally Posted by John F

Not true. For you (and Jon) maybe, for anybody/everybody else, no.

Minor nit: Can you offer any proof that your statement that anybody/everybody else is true? Note that even one other person not using WiFi will render your statement false. Given that more than one person has complained about sideloaded books being deleted when WiFi is turned on suggests that your statement is false and there is a probably small but not nonexistent number of people who do not normally use WiFi with their Kindle eInk devices.

Also, please no more dragging of red herrings about reading on other devices such as phones, tablets, computers, other manufacturer's eInk ereaders, etc. into this discussion.

Originally Posted by John F

Why? I thought the theory was if you use wifi regularly and sideloaded, books wouldn't be deleted (click would regularly be updated, so no problems).

Sadly, that is a theory at this point with no concrete evidence suggesting that it is true. While I agree it seems likely as the explanation, it's not tested and proven.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by haertig

The only myopic thing I see here is your rush to denigrate my comments, and while attempting to do so, making yourself look foolish.

Good thing you're just about one of the last people on this forum whose opinion RE my looking foolish I would concern myself with. Feel free to carry on with your uneducated Amazon bashing party with no further interference from me. Seems to be your raison d'etre around here.

[haertig]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

uneducated Amazon bashing party

?????

[John F]

Originally Posted by DNSB

Minor nit: Can you offer any proof that your statement that anybody/everybody else is true? Note that even one other person not using WiFi will render your statement false. ...

I believe you have it backwards. The post that started this was:

What's the point of a Kindle for anyone who side-loads and uses WiFi? Nothing at all!

So as long as one person is using wifi and sideloading, "anybody" is false. I am willing to assume that I do not know more then everyone else, so if someone is using wifi, I assume they (or at least some of they) have a point for using it.

[hondabf]

Originally Posted by Quoth

If you sideload all your ebooks, even ones bought on Amazon (which doesn't need DRM removed if same Kindle as in downloads) what do you need the Kindle WiFi for? It will mess up covers, collections, gratuitously upgrade firmware or switch settings in firmware and potentially accidentally remove ebooks. You've agreed the browser/wiki is abysmal.

I think it would be better to invite the people who side-load everything to jailbreak their Kindles, install KOReader and side-load every book through the Calibre Wireless connection plugin (which works extremely well, just yesterday I sent 200mb of content and it didn't even flinch ).

And I am not saying this as a way to say "frick you Amazon" (which is something a certain user in this thread has stated so clearly they hate to read (they call it "Amazon Hater Noise") but is still posting here for some reason??), but because dealing with the aforementioned Kindle's issues both with offline/online devices it's simply not worth it.

Amazon by this point should know about this bug, that's clear. But doesn't want to fix it, because technically, fixing a content nuking issue that is caused by either side-loaded books or a drifted clock, doesn't necessarily give them money. It's easier to make users learn the hard way that side-loaded books are dangerous.

And in my opinion, unregistered (not banned) Kindles without internet connection, and unregistered Kindles with Internet connection are somewhat the same than offline account-registered Kindles are.

The difference with the latter is that someone has to pray every time they connect to the Internet, just so their library doesn't get nuked because of a drifted clock issue or because Amazon thought that one or two side-loaded books were mean to them.

Like yes, I do understand one can side-load everything again with kits but ahgg, that's too much of a hassle.

By that point, I think it's easier to jailbreak a Kindle than to deal with Amazon's antics. One either saves money for a Kobo/Pocketbook device in the meantime, or wait for their current firmware version to be jailbroken.

KOReader is not that bad after all.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by hondabf

I think it would be better to invite the people who side-load everything to jailbreak their Kindles, install KOReader and side-load every book through the Calibre Wireless connection plugin (which works extremely well, just yesterday I sent 200mb of content and it didn't even flinch ). .

Lots of people can't jailbreak.

I've used KOReader and it's great for stupidly formatted epubs. However it is not yet using metadata browsing like the Library interface on Kobo, Kindle, Nook and Sony ereaders. It browses folders (directories). I'll look at it again when the metadata library interface is done. I do use it occasionally on an android eink, but not on other Android. I know some people like it.

This is not a solution because it does nothing about Amazon accidentally deleting content and also isn't practical for a Kindle.

Trivial to install KOreader on Android and Kobo (and I've don both).

And in my opinion, unregistered (not banned) Kindles without internet connection, and unregistered Kindles with Internet connection are somewhat the same than offline account-registered Kindles are.

This makes no sense.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by John F

I believe you have it backwards. The post that started this was:

So as long as one person is using wifi and sideloading, "anybody" is false. I am willing to assume that I do not know more then everyone else, so if someone is using wifi, I assume they (or at least some of they) have a point for using it.

Sadly the post you referenced in that message was not the one you quoted in your reply to my message and it was obvious from the reference to Jon in your post that you meant to quote the message you quoted.

The relevant portion of your post was:

Originally Posted by Quoth

So if you are sideloading ebooks there is no need to use the WiFi, ever.

Originally Posted by John F

Not true. For you (and Jon) maybe, for anybody/everybody else, no.

And as I said, if we can find even one person outside of @Quoth and @JSWolf who use sideloading as their only method of transferring content to their Kindle and do not make use of WiFi, your statement is false.

Considering the number of posts from people who do not ever want to connect their Kindle to a WiFi network....

[Gone]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

What's the financial benefit for greedy, evil Amazon in purposely deleting side-loaded books from the devices of the miniscule number of users who sideload books AND leave their WiFi off for large swathes of time?

Simple. Amazon wants people to buy their ebooks on their store. If you have an ebook on your device that is trying to mimic one of them, maybe they have a policy to erase such a steel.

Who is going to complain to Amazon for erasing ebooks they "found" on the internet?

It's just a theory.

[DNSB]

Originally Posted by Claude_C

Simple. Amazon wants people to buy their ebooks on their store. If you have an ebook on your device that is trying to mimic one of them, maybe they have a policy to erase such a steel.

Who is going to complain to Amazon for erasing ebooks they "found" on the internet?

It's just a theory.

If and only if they can prove that I did not legitimately obtain the ebook from another source, could such removal be possibly justified. The content wiped from my Kindle was from Kobo, Baen, SmashWords, Gutenberg, Standard Ebooks plus a few books that I had worked on and not removed from my Kindle. If I did not have them in my calibre library, I damn well would have screamed more loudly than just reporting the issue to Amazon.

My personal opinion is more on the lines of Hanlon's razor.