page-break-after avoid not working - Page 3

Quoth · 01-24-2023, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Forcing a page break is not the problem if you always want a page break. The issue is similiar to ignoring orphan setting, only because you underline the first word, and then it thinks it is ok to ignore orphans that are smaller then your specified minimum.

But forcing the avoidance of a break is nearly impossible. That always implies a random earlier forced break (due to screen size, dpi, font size etc). Only some renderers can calculate it, so it's only going to ever work on some devices and apps.

I think also some people don't understand widows and orphan settings either, like why in Western languages they are by default 2 and why 0 is meaningless, but 1 means don't do processing to avoid widows and orphans. Widows or Orphans at more than 1 is indeed related to "don't break inside" but easier for a renderer to process. Only terrible apps ignore Widow or Orphan settings.

RonOnThePond · 01-24-2023, 09:41 AM

I can force a page break just fine. It's a matter of "keep with next" situations. I don't want a minor <h2> or <h3> heading to be alone at the bottom of a page, but rather moved along with the following paragraph to the next page. Also, if I have a paragraph inside a box for emphasis, I don't want the box split over two pages, but moved to the next page in its entirety.

Interesting comment, Quoth, about the Kindle Previewer. I am using the windows desktop client version of it. Things often look fine in the Calibre editor, but not in the Kindle tester. I only have a Kindle Paperwhite. I also have a Samsung tablet. So I feel like I need to rely on Amazon's options to test. What would you suggest I do to test as I edit?

My basic workflow was to import the docx manuscript that is finalized for a paperback edition into Calibre. Then I'll take the final epub and upload to KDP. If this is not a good path, I'm open to learning something new!

Thank you for all your input. I still desperately need an approach to "keep with next" that will reliably work with Kindle.

RonOnThePond · 01-24-2023, 09:48 AM

So my two situations are (1) boxed text paragraphs, and (2) minor headings. If the box won't fit on the remaining space on a page, move the whole thing to the next page. If there is no room for the first paragraph after a one-line heading on the same page as the heading, move both the heading and the paragraph to the next page, together. For the first situation, I've used "page-break-inside: avoid" in css. For the other, I used "page-break-after: avoid" in the css for the one-line heading. Neither is working at all. Ugh.

Quoth · 01-24-2023, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonOnThePond

So my two situations are (1) boxed text paragraphs, and (2) minor headings. If the box won't fit on the remaining space on a page, move the whole thing to the next page. If there is no room for the first paragraph after a one-line heading on the same page as the heading, move both the heading and the paragraph to the next page, together. For the first situation, I've used "page-break-inside: avoid" in css. For the other, I used "page-break-after: avoid" in the css for the one-line heading. Neither is working at all. Ugh.

The problem is the lines per screen can be anything, depending on screen size and font size, so even increasing widows & orphans doesn't work well on everything.
The only way to avoid 1 or 2 getting messed on any app (or ereader) is have a page break before always via a new HTML file! Conditional page break before is implied by "no page break inside" and often doesn't work.

"page-break-inside: avoid" and "page-break-after: avoid" are completely ignored by some apps. I've not experimented as what does honour them.

DuckieTigger · 01-24-2023, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quoth

"page-break-inside: avoid" and "page-break-after: avoid" are completely ignored by some apps. I've not experimented as what does honour them.

Since this is in the Kindle forum, I assumed OP wanted it to work on eink Kindles. With an app, especially on small screens with large font setting, all bets are off, anyway.

Does Kindle Create make better KFX? But then the only way to test them is to run them through Kindle Previewer with KFX Output - and that is using Kindle Previewer again, as I understand.

Quoth · 01-24-2023, 12:29 PM

You can only send docx (bad idea) or epub to KDP to publish real ebooks on Kindle.

If it's personal use, then for eink use Calibre (azw3 or kfx) and forget about Amazon altogether. Transfer via USB. The "Send to Kindle" seems to be a version of KDP now, it wants epub and is less good than KDP or Calibre.

jhowell · 01-24-2023, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Does Kindle Create make better KFX? But then the only way to test them is to run them through Kindle Previewer with KFX Output - and that is using Kindle Previewer again, as I understand.

Kindle Previewer and Kindle Create mostly use the same internal libraries for conversion to KFX that Amazon uses if you send them a book. Published books do go through some additional processing but that mostly impact images.

You can feed a KPF file produced by Kindle Create into the KFX Output plugin using its CLI mode. In that case the Kindle Previewer will not be invoked since KPF is actually KFX with different packaging.

In this particular case the conversion to KFX produces significantly different output if the heading includes a border, for reasons that are unclear to me. It actually is turned into the KFX equivalent of a paragraph nested within a div. And for some reason in that case the KFX reading software ignores the code to avoid the page break, probably due to a long standing bug.

RonOnThePond · 01-24-2023, 06:15 PM

Wow, jhowell. You have given me something concrete that might solve my page break problem. In fact, I do have a bottom border for all of my h1, h2, h3 headings. I will experiment with this and keep my fingers crossed. I think it looks bad to have a heading with an underlined border (or even no border) at the bottom of a page, but no text until the following page. Better to move the heading to the next page with the paragraph that follows it. That's all I'm trying to do. Seems simple enough (in Word it is "keep with next").

But as I am typing this, it occurs to me that I may be misunderstanding page-break-after with avoid. If there is only room for the heading at the bottom of a page, how does it avoid the page break after? It obviously can't squeeze the following paragraph onto the page because there's no room at the bottom, which is the very problem I'm trying to solve. So will it move the heading to the next page to be with the following paragraph, as hoped? Or will it just be unable to "avoid" not having a page break after the heading, and leave it as-is? If it's the latter, the what the heck is the purpose of page-break-after avoid, if not to keep two paragraphs together on the same page by moving the first to the next page? What situation is that supposed to address, if not mine?

Ugh.

jhowell · 01-24-2023, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonOnThePond

If there is only room for the heading at the bottom of a page, how does it avoid the page break after? It obviously can't squeeze the following paragraph onto the page because there's no room at the bottom, which is the very problem I'm trying to solve. So will it move the heading to the next page to be with the following paragraph, as hoped?

Yes, that is what is supposed to happen. It will result in extra white space at the bottom of the page before.

RonOnThePond · 01-24-2023, 10:05 PM

Okay, thank you. At least I know my expectation is valid. Extra white space at the bottom of the page from where the heading was moved is fine. If only it would do that.

DuckieTigger · 01-24-2023, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RonOnThePond

Okay, thank you. At least I know my expectation is valid. Extra white space at the bottom of the page from where the heading was moved is fine. If only it would do that.

You still have the choice to force the page break before your headings. It won't look so bad. Just remember the screen used for ebooks are relatively small. Plus, you don't need to save a tree by conserving space.

Will it look like your pbook? No it won't. But it doesn't have to be. There is one advantage of reflowing books in that you can reflow them.

RonOnThePond · 01-26-2023, 06:59 AM

Good advice, DuckieTigger. In fact, I have resorted to that for h1 and h2 headings. It's mostly the h3 ones that give me grief because a page break before those would make reading feel a bit choppy, even if not technically interrupting the so-called flow of the text. More than 1/3 of a blank page at the bottom would make me feel like, "Hey, is that the end of the chapter? What gives?" For h1, h1, that's an okay reaction but not for h3. So I'll probably just take my chances on a few h3s standing alone at the bottom of a page. I think I can live with that.

But the other, where I want to avoid a page-break inside, is boxed text. This is non-fiction, and in one h1 chapter there are nine h2 sections offering nine steps for the reader to follow. At the end of each h2 is a box containing 3-6 lines of text succinctly summarizing the takeaway. I would much rather have the box intact at the top of the next page, rather than a split box with one or two lines at the bottom of a page and the rest on the next page. But … not working. I may throw a hail-Mary and make the boxes graphics instead, which would not look as good, but would solve the problem. I don't really want to go that route, but might have no choice.

Quoth · 01-26-2023, 07:49 AM

Just make sure all boxed text is at the start of a fresh HTML file.

Graphic image of the text in a box worse than a break, but a start of new file always gives a page break on everything (except stupid apps or apps with a scroll setting), even mobi.
I avoid more than two levels of Header as some ereader system TOC can only do two levels. Instead use a <p of same style. Both of these are easy in Word or LO Writer source (always edit odt in Writer and extra Save As in docx for Calibre or Sigil import) as you can make any user defined heading style be body level instead of an outline level.
If I need more than 2 levels in contents / index I just build that as semi-manually created source inline contents or index page, again easy in Word or LO Writer source

JSWolf · 01-26-2023, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

You still have the choice to force the page break before your headings. It won't look so bad. Just remember the screen used for ebooks are relatively small. Plus, you don't need to save a tree by conserving space.

Will it look like your pbook? No it won't. But it doesn't have to be. There is one advantage of reflowing books in that you can reflow them.

Why force a page break before the headings? Just split the HTML file at the point you do want a page break. That's the best solution that will work.

Quoth · 01-26-2023, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Why force a page break before the headings? Just split the HTML file at the point you do want a page break. That's the best solution that will work.

That is how you force a page break. Anything else is unreliable.

01-26-2023, 06:59 AM	#42
RonOnThePond Enthusiast Posts: 25 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jan 2023 Device: kindle	Good advice, DuckieTigger. In fact, I have resorted to that for h1 and h2 headings. It's mostly the h3 ones that give me grief because a page break before those would make reading feel a bit choppy, even if not technically interrupting the so-called flow of the text. More than 1/3 of a blank page at the bottom would make me feel like, "Hey, is that the end of the chapter? What gives?" For h1, h1, that's an okay reaction but not for h3. So I'll probably just take my chances on a few h3s standing alone at the bottom of a page. I think I can live with that. But the other, where I want to avoid a page-break inside, is boxed text. This is non-fiction, and in one h1 chapter there are nine h2 sections offering nine steps for the reader to follow. At the end of each h2 is a box containing 3-6 lines of text succinctly summarizing the takeaway. I would much rather have the box intact at the top of the next page, rather than a split box with one or two lines at the bottom of a page and the rest on the next page. But … not working. I may throw a hail-Mary and make the boxes graphics instead, which would not look as good, but would solve the problem. I don't really want to go that route, but might have no choice. Last edited by RonOnThePond; 01-26-2023 at 07:02 AM.

01-26-2023, 07:49 AM	#43
Quoth Still reading Posts: 14,121 Karma: 105211945 Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: Ireland Device: All 4 Kinds: epub eink, Kindle, android eink, NxtPaper	Just make sure all boxed text is at the start of a fresh HTML file. Graphic image of the text in a box worse than a break, but a start of new file always gives a page break on everything (except stupid apps or apps with a scroll setting), even mobi. I avoid more than two levels of Header as some ereader system TOC can only do two levels. Instead use a <p of same style. Both of these are easy in Word or LO Writer source (always edit odt in Writer and extra Save As in docx for Calibre or Sigil import) as you can make any user defined heading style be body level instead of an outline level. If I need more than 2 levels in contents / index I just build that as semi-manually created source inline contents or index page, again easy in Word or LO Writer source Last edited by Quoth; 01-26-2023 at 07:53 AM.

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01-24-2023, 09:41 AM	#32
RonOnThePond Enthusiast Posts: 25 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jan 2023 Device: kindle	I can force a page break just fine. It's a matter of "keep with next" situations. I don't want a minor <h2> or <h3> heading to be alone at the bottom of a page, but rather moved along with the following paragraph to the next page. Also, if I have a paragraph inside a box for emphasis, I don't want the box split over two pages, but moved to the next page in its entirety. Interesting comment, Quoth, about the Kindle Previewer. I am using the windows desktop client version of it. Things often look fine in the Calibre editor, but not in the Kindle tester. I only have a Kindle Paperwhite. I also have a Samsung tablet. So I feel like I need to rely on Amazon's options to test. What would you suggest I do to test as I edit? My basic workflow was to import the docx manuscript that is finalized for a paperback edition into Calibre. Then I'll take the final epub and upload to KDP. If this is not a good path, I'm open to learning something new! Thank you for all your input. I still desperately need an approach to "keep with next" that will reliably work with Kindle.

01-24-2023, 09:48 AM	#33
RonOnThePond Enthusiast Posts: 25 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jan 2023 Device: kindle	So my two situations are (1) boxed text paragraphs, and (2) minor headings. If the box won't fit on the remaining space on a page, move the whole thing to the next page. If there is no room for the first paragraph after a one-line heading on the same page as the heading, move both the heading and the paragraph to the next page, together. For the first situation, I've used "page-break-inside: avoid" in css. For the other, I used "page-break-after: avoid" in the css for the one-line heading. Neither is working at all. Ugh.

01-24-2023, 12:29 PM	#36
Quoth Still reading Posts: 14,121 Karma: 105211945 Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: Ireland Device: All 4 Kinds: epub eink, Kindle, android eink, NxtPaper	You can only send docx (bad idea) or epub to KDP to publish real ebooks on Kindle. If it's personal use, then for eink use Calibre (azw3 or kfx) and forget about Amazon altogether. Transfer via USB. The "Send to Kindle" seems to be a version of KDP now, it wants epub and is less good than KDP or Calibre.

01-24-2023, 06:15 PM	#38
RonOnThePond Enthusiast Posts: 25 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jan 2023 Device: kindle	Wow, jhowell. You have given me something concrete that might solve my page break problem. In fact, I do have a bottom border for all of my h1, h2, h3 headings. I will experiment with this and keep my fingers crossed. I think it looks bad to have a heading with an underlined border (or even no border) at the bottom of a page, but no text until the following page. Better to move the heading to the next page with the paragraph that follows it. That's all I'm trying to do. Seems simple enough (in Word it is "keep with next"). But as I am typing this, it occurs to me that I may be misunderstanding page-break-after with avoid. If there is only room for the heading at the bottom of a page, how does it avoid the page break after? It obviously can't squeeze the following paragraph onto the page because there's no room at the bottom, which is the very problem I'm trying to solve. So will it move the heading to the next page to be with the following paragraph, as hoped? Or will it just be unable to "avoid" not having a page break after the heading, and leave it as-is? If it's the latter, the what the heck is the purpose of page-break-after avoid, if not to keep two paragraphs together on the same page by moving the first to the next page? What situation is that supposed to address, if not mine? Ugh.

01-24-2023, 10:05 PM	#40
RonOnThePond Enthusiast Posts: 25 Karma: 10 Join Date: Jan 2023 Device: kindle	Okay, thank you. At least I know my expectation is valid. Extra white space at the bottom of the page from where the heading was moved is fine. If only it would do that.