open letter about the universal right to install any software on any device

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Yes, no rule here in Ireland which side the hot tap is. The cistern has two holes, one with a blanking plug, but those are obsolete and cheapest kind. Most now have a dual button on top for partial or full flush. Japan has models with built in bidet. Some countries don't allow toilet paper in loo, it must be put in a bin at the side.

We have different electrical systems in Europe too. Ireland uses the same plug sockets as UK, but also has two other less common sockets and lower voltage usually (230 vs 240 and most Continental Europe is 220V, but we are inside tolerance band). Old clocks, reel tape machines and record player use the mains frequency so transfer between USA / Europe makes speed wrong, USA DVDs are only 480 lines vs European 576 lines.

We don't even speak the same sort of English or drive on same side of road* in Ireland & UK, so why should toilets be the same? We go to the loo or toilet, not bathroom (Unless you are going for a bath) even though in many houses the bath and toilet share the room.

{*More countries used to drive on the left and Spain used to be in UK timezone. Blame Franco & Hitler).

Thanks. I'm quite well aware of cultural difference between countries. Especially those surrounding the language of "going to the bathroom/loo/toilet/WC".

Same for technological differences such as electrical plugs/voltage -- PAL vs NTSC and the like. Hell, I'm even aware of the European two-stage flush, and the built-in bidets of the Japanese. I've peed in toilets where the cistern was high on the wall that had a chain-pull to flush. I've seen stuff!

I'm not the blind, "everybody does (or should) everything the same as we do here in 'murica", rube you attempted to paint me as. So that attempt at "educating me" on the wide, wide world was utterly unnecessary (people drive on different sides of the road in some countries?? Well gee-whillikers, what fer??).

The only thing I didn't know was that a relocatable flushing mechanism on toilets was as commonplace as you make it out to be. So if the two-hole (with a blanking-plug) approach is obsolete, perhaps you could explain to this plumbers son just how the relocatable flushing mechanism in your neck 'o the woods is currently accomplished? Without the condescending eurosplaining if possible.

[jbjb]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Don't underestimate the size of the "I just want it to work" crowd. Because to the technologically challenged (and to some extent, the technologically ambivalent), "open" is synonymous with "fiddly" and/or "easily bricked". They want no part of it.

It's not just the technologically challenged that can be happy with a locked down device that just does what they want. (I know you're not saying it is, I'm just emphasising the point!)

There are plenty of highly technically savvy people who, even though they're entirely capable of doing so, simply have no interest in rooting their phone, building their own computers, etc., when readily available devices do what they want. They may get their technical fix through other projects, or simply because they spend their professional day working with tech they don't want to spend their free time doing it too.

[ApK]

Indeed, locked down appliances can be a great option for many people for many reasons. But if we don't stay vigilant and involved and push to protect other options, then we will have no other options.

p.s. I read the letter. I agree in principle, and I suspect that no one, save the most naive and/or extreme, thinks that letter represents anyone's expected version of final legislative language. It's an initial, broad statement of values-based ideas, and would be refined, clarified, compromised, rationalized, and some other verbs, before leading to anything more.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

The only thing I didn't know was that a relocatable flushing mechanism on toilets was as commonplace as you make it out to be. So if the two-hole (with a blanking-plug) approach is obsolete, perhaps you could explain to this plumbers son just how the relocatable flushing mechanism in your neck 'o the woods is currently accomplished? Without the condescending eurosplaining if possible.

I got a bit carried away.

The reversible one is still sold. It's the cheapest. It's an all or nothing flush.

The recommended kind with an alternate shorter flush has a button instead of a lever and it is centre/middle top. You can either press the entire button or a smaller button inset to the rear edge. So no reversing needed.

I keep meaning to swap our handle as the install was at the left side (installed 1985, but we moved in in 1998) and the right would suit better. But there is actually a second blank plug on the side. The handle has to be on the front of the side where the water pipe attaches, so choosing side is only easy at install time. I'd have to replace the plumbing.

I've not examined how the water gets into the newer tanks and if it can go in either side.

[ApK]

Geesh, this thread drift is really taking the discussion into the toilet.

See what I did there?

[Quoth]

This is positive.
Already possible with Fire & Android tablets.
https://www.theregister.com/2022/12/...ird_party_ios/

Or at least i can load 3rd party APKs on any of my Android devices. Sometimes direct on the device from Git (KOReader)

[Aleron Ives]

The Document Foundation seems to be making the argument proposed by people like Richard Stallman that FOSS is not just superior to proprietary software, but that proprietary software is actually immoral. Obviously, most people don't agree with this extreme view. Companies are free to produce proprietary software, just as we are free to not buy it. I try to use FOSS options when possible, but if a superior software solution exists and is proprietary, I'll use that if it meets my needs better than any FOSS alternative.

Although I agree with them that a closed system like the iPhone is bad, because it puts too many restrictions on the user, I won't go so far as to say that the iPhone doesn't have a right to exist, and that Apple must be compelled to open its platform. That kind of reasoning can be used in other situations where we might not like the outcome, so we shouldn't use that kind of reasoning at all.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Aleron Ives

That kind of reasoning can be used in other situations where we might not like the outcome, so we shouldn't use that kind of reasoning at all.

I certainly don't agree with that logic. Free societies with rule of law are certainly capable of deciding things like that on a case by case basis.

[Aleron Ives]

I was specifically referring to the idea of, "I don't like X, therefore X should not be allowed to exist." That is an extremely low bar, and the standard must be set higher than that. If you want to come up with a more specific rule about what it is in Apple's business model that is wrong and how it must be changed, then we can discuss such a thing, but I'm not prepared to say that just because I disagree with Apple's business practices that my disapproval a suitable basis for me to say the government must compel Apple to change.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by Aleron Ives

I was specifically referring to the idea of, "I don't like X, therefore X should not be allowed to exist." That is an extremely low bar, and the standard must be set higher than that. If you want to come up with a more specific rule about what it is in Apple's business model that is wrong and how it must be changed, then we can discuss such a thing, but I'm not prepared to say that just because I disagree with Apple's business practices that my disapproval a suitable basis for me to say the government must compel Apple to change.

It would be more like "we, the majority of society, don't like this (because we believe it's bad for our society, e.g, it results in needless economic and environmental waste and harms consumer rights) and so we'll make laws against it."

One way that may happen is by some small group in that society making the case and putting it before the rest of the society to see if they can muster the needed support.
That's what I think this open letter represents, not "I don't like it so you shouldn't have it." In fact, I just recently made another post here specifically criticizing that kind of tyrannical attitude. I don't think this is that.

[haertig]

Originally Posted by ApK

It would be more like "we, the majority of society, don't like this (because we believe it's bad for our society, e.g, it results in needless economic and environmental waste and harms consumer rights) and so we'll make laws against it."

Which is exactly what the EU had done to Apple. Apple must now allow 3rd party app stores and sideloading of apps in the EU. And they can't use their Lightning connector anymore, they have to switch to USB-C.

I'm not saying that this is right or wrong. I'm just saying that it's happening now.

[theducks]

Originally Posted by haertig

Which is exactly what the EU had done to Apple. Apple must now allow 3rd party app stores and sideloading of apps in the EU. And they can't use their Lightning connector anymore, they have to switch to USB-C.

I'm not saying that this is right or wrong. I'm just saying that it's happening now.

I thank the EU.
Every cell phone I owned up till then had a custom charge/data connection. Wall Worts and adapters were piling up. All in the name of locking you in or selling another 'upgrade'. Brand loyalty was being forced rather than earned.

As a technician, I used to open a computer case and make a judgment by just what I saw. Care, Serviceability or CHEAP (so cheap the you had to watch out for all metal edges or come away bloody).

IBM (accidentally?) did everything right to get the PC adopted on the desk (then blew it with proprietary micro-channel)
Sun was well built, easy to service.
Apple made gorgeous stuff, but their policies & price drove me away.
I buy Dell business class because it is long term reliable at a tame price. The home class did not hit rock bottom in cost cutting, but it is too close fore me)
There are better performers, but I want longevity rather than the fastest (I don't do games).

[haertig]

Originally Posted by theducks

I thank the EU.
Every cell phone I owned up till then had a custom charge/data connection. Wall Worts and adapters were piling up.

I hear you on that. But I'm still not in favor of the government mandating a standard. What if they had mandated microUSB a few years back? Then we wouldn't have the much more capable USB-C that we do today. Politicians, who know nothing about electronics (or much of anything else for that matter) have no business mandating standards like this. They simply do not know what they are doing. A mandated USB-C standard may sound good in the short term, but it will stifle innovation in the long term.

[popej]

Originally Posted by haertig

What if they had mandated microUSB a few years back?

They had, somewhere about 2010.

I think more relevant to current discussion would be the fine, which EU gave to Microsoft for for failing to offer users a choice of Web browser.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by haertig

I hear you on that. But I'm still not in favor of the government mandating a standard. What if they had mandated microUSB a few years back? Then we wouldn't have the much more capable USB-C that we do today. Politicians, who know nothing about electronics (or much of anything else for that matter) have no business mandating standards like this. They simply do not know what they are doing. A mandated USB-C standard may sound good in the short term, but it will stifle innovation in the long term.

While I haven't read the text of the EU law, and have little desire to do so, I see various sources saying the law allows for continued innovation and has a mechanism to approve future changes. So IDEALLY what would have happened if they did this in the microUSB days, is that it would now be updated to USB-C. I'm also not sure if the law means they can ONLY use USB-C, or if they can use other mechanisms in addition to USB-C. IOW, could Apple comply if their devices had a Lightning port AND a USB-C port? Or a USB-C snap in adapter included?

Again, I don't know or care about the specifics of the EU law (except in that I totally agree with theducks, the trickle-down effect of USB-C standardization has been AWESOME for me here in the US). Just pointing out that there are details involved that can make for a better or worse implementation of the idea.

Nonetheless, I agree with you that government involvement should be resisted, and I think used only as a carefully considered last resort when enough people agree it's needed. And politicians, in general, absolutely suck. We need to elect better legislators.