open letter about the universal right to install any software on any device

[meeera]

Originally Posted by haertig

We both bought and paid for our tablets. But only one of us is allowed to use the device in the way we want to.

Yep! And we both have a choice about whether to buy that tablet or choose a different one that better suits our needs.

[popej]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Why would anyone spend money on a tablet before finding out if they could actually use the device the way they want to? Caveat Emptor very much applies.

This is a part of the problem. Whenever I consider to buy a smart device, I spend hours to find, if it would be usable. Because manufacturer doesn't provide enough information and there is no clear rules, what manufacturer can/can't do. This is not normal.

Have you ever bought a devices, which worked well but after forced update lost important to you functionality? An example: I have bought Fire TV Stick, assuming that I could put a clean launcher on it, for an older person who use it. This worked for some time, but was disabled with updates.

[meeera]

Originally Posted by popej

This is a part of the problem. Whenever I consider to buy a smart device, I spend hours to find, if it would be usable. Because manufacturer doesn't provide enough information and there is no clear rules, what manufacturer can/can't do.

If the open letter was about providing that sort of information transparently, I'd be on board. Or if there were a voluntary certification process/standard around it that companies could sign up to (is there?)

As it stands, the letter wants to restrict the freedom of businesses to provide products that their users want.

[Fiat_Lux]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Why would anyone spend money on a tablet before finding out if they could actually use the device the way they want to? Caveat Emptor very much applies.

The sales people flat out lied about the device functionality.
Something that happened to me. I was skeptical, but was assured that the tablet shipped with Lineage OS installed. The sales literature claimed Lineage OS was an option, but only if the customer specifically requested it.
Whilst one can install Lineage on the tablet, one automatically loses both WiFi and phone/data functionality.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Fiat_Lux

T
Whilst one can install Lineage on the tablet, one automatically loses both WiFi and phone/data functionality.

I'd not exactly call that a successful install. Useless really unless it's for a prisoner or child not allowed internet or mobile.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by haertig

I'm wondering how you feel about buying a computer and finding out later that it comes with only Microsoft's keys, secure boot enabled, and the user cannot disable secure boot? You probably wouldn't find this out until you went to install Linux on the box.

You don't have to wonder. It would never happen. Buying the correct computer components for my use is second nature (and paramount to any who would seek to install any OS that wasn't already preinstalled).

Originally Posted by haertig

Granted, most manufacturers/BIOSes allow the customer to disable secure boot. But not all do.

Examples/links of some that don't, please. Mainstream stuff, please. Nobody who's buying cheap hardware to repurpose is doing so blindly. They know what they're doing.

Originally Posted by haertig

And if they don't, I'll bet 95% or more of customers don't know how to hack their way around this and they are stuck with Windows forever.

Nor would they want to. Those 95% are happy to be stuck with Windows. It's what they want. It wouldn't occur to them to switch. And on the rare chance one did want to, I'm betting they'd be resourceful enough to get help. The other 5% won't be troubled in the least.

Originally Posted by haertig

Which was probably Microsoft's plan with their support for secure boot all along.This Windows lock-in is not advertised and is not easily discoverable prior to purchase.

Sure it's easily discoverable. Ask a friend, not a salesperson. Everyone knows a few geeks.

Originally Posted by haertig

( I imagine you build your own computers as I do mine. But I'm wondering, theoretically, for people that buy their computers, if this would be a caveat emptor situation in your opinion. Personally, I don't think it is, because it's not readily discoverable. )

You imagine correctly. I build my own computers. But caveat emptor still applies. If you want to use something for other than its advertised intent. You better be prepared to do your research. If it's important enough for someone, they'll find the answers. And if it's not important enough, they'll just use the the computer they bought in the manner that the huge majority of people do anyway.

Those who can; do. Those who can't; don't typically want to. Same as it ever was.

More people won't choose to switch OSes just because Secure Boot was disabled in their bios by default.

The argument that a non-negligible portion of society is somehow being hamstrung by the inability to easily repurpose purchased hardware is not a very convincing one, IMO.

[Terisa de morgan]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

More people won't choose to switch OSes just because Secure Boot was disabled in their bios by default.

Most people has to discover what SecureBoot is.

[popej]

Originally Posted by meeera

As it stands, the letter wants to restrict the freedom of businesses to provide products that their users want.

Or you can say, that the letter wants to brake monopolies, which restrict freedom of business.

For example, could you select Mozilla as a network location provider on your phone?

[DiapDealer]

Can you move the flush-lever from your toilet to the other side of the tank, or do you need to choose that custom option at the time you buy it?

[haertig]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Can you move the flush-lever from your toilet to the other side of the tank, or do you need to choose that custom option at the time you buy it?

Funny you should ask. My flush lever is dangling from a chain in the center of the toilet currently. It corroded and broke. Oddly enough, things work much better now. You pull the chain and the weight of the broken flush lever dangling there is perfect for controlling how long the flapper valve stays open. And you get visual feedback that the flapper is closed at the end by observing the dangling lever slowly crawl back up the front of the tank into the reset position. Used to be that sometimes you'd have to jiggle the handle to get the flapper fully closed, or stand there and hold the lever handle down until the flush got past the tank-mostly-empty critical point. Dangling levers rule!

Someday I'll get around to replacing the broken lever. But for now, I'm enjoying the enhanced functionality it provides. And for future toilets I will be sure to choose the dangling lever custom option (the top has to support alternate positioning so that the chain can move unimpeded).

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Can you move the flush-lever from your toilet to the other side of the tank, or do you need to choose that custom option at the time you buy it?

Can move the lever and also the fridge door hinge side can be swapped.
Oddly my expensive Canon camera can have 3rd party firmware, but I'd not risk it. IMO it's an appliance that does what it's meant to do and I'd only ever have expected Canon updates maybe for bugs, not to add apps or swap to 3rd party FW.

My old iPhone is useless because you can't install apps, but much older Android still can install from Playstore. Even older Android that can't connect can use an apk from anywhere. However I was given the iPhone S/H and unfortunately it only had the stock apps. No 3rd party audio player or ereader, so totally walled off.

I don't think it's a simple issue. Some things it's not appropriate to replace makers software and other stuff like phones, routers, tablets, ereaders and laptops there are choices of entirely locked down vs install 3rd party apps, vs even replace boot/main FW.

I think the letter is too simplistic.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by Quoth

I think the letter is too simplistic.

Then we agree.

And toilets must be much different in other areas. 'Cause in the U.S., you're not moving the lever after you bought it (unless you're into some major ceramics/porcelain work). There's only one hole for the lever, and that hole doesn't move. Unless you're talking some high-end cost-prohibitive experimental model.

[ApK]

I have a lot of thoughts on the philosophy of this, and I haven't even read the actual letter yet.
But I disagree with DD, I think, in one fundamental aspect. Using smart phones as an example:

Google and Apple between them essentially own every fully functional smart phone on the planet, period.

They will limit the options and functionality to what's best for them, what keeps them most powerful, regardless of what even fairly large blocks of consumers want.

If this wasn't so, if there were cottage manufactures where I could reliably buy a smart device with a variety of OSes that had no locks imposed by Google or Apple and didn't depend on them, and which STILL HAD ALL the functionality I need and have come to depend on, like ability to watch Netflix or Disney+, or connect to a secure corporate system, then, I would agree, buyer beware, and shop elsewhere.
But elsewhere doesn't exist.

For computers, the options are still there, but if people don't push back, some quasi-monopoly or Google/Apple type cartel will push the same limitations and eliminate the choice there as well. And then in whatever other domain they can.

So, I'm with the "make a better world" set. Push to keep stuff open.

Oh, and for the "but then people might steal the phone" set: Yes. Freedom isn't safe, and Google's not your mommy.

[DiapDealer]

That's fair. But I do think many people often delude themselves about just how much "open" the market would actually embrace. Don't underestimate the size of the "I just want it to work" crowd. Because to the technologically challenged (and to some extent, the technologically ambivalent), "open" is synonymous with "fiddly" and/or "easily bricked". They want no part of it. Strange as it may be for some of us to comprehend, many people are quite happy that the ability to render their device unusable is locked away from them.

I, myself, am quite happy that I have access to devices that I can buy and hack and customize to my hearts content (though I find myself losing the desire to root much of anything these days -- even if it's easy). I'm equally happy that I can buy my octogenarian father a locked down device that "just works" (that he can't accidentally fat-finger into oblivion because it's wide open like a barn door).

I know people (my dad included) who could break the technological equivalent of an anvil. If his iphone was any more "open", I'd get nothing done but fixing his phone.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

Then we agree.

And toilets must be much different in other areas. 'Cause in the U.S., you're not moving the lever after you bought it

Yes, no rule here in Ireland which side the hot tap is. The cistern has two holes, one with a blanking plug, but those are obsolete and cheapest kind. Most now have a dual button on top for partial or full flush. Japan has models with built in bidet. Some countries don't allow toilet paper in loo, it must be put in a bin at the side.

We have different electrical systems in Europe too. Ireland uses the same plug sockets as UK, but also has two other less common sockets and lower voltage usually (230 vs 240 and most Continental Europe is 220V, but we are inside tolerance band). Old clocks, reel tape machines and record player use the mains frequency so transfer between USA / Europe makes speed wrong, USA DVDs are only 480 lines vs European 576 lines.

We don't even speak the same sort of English or drive on same side of road* in Ireland & UK, so why should toilets be the same? We go to the loo or toilet, not bathroom (Unless you are going for a bath) even though in many houses the bath and toilet share the room.

{*More countries used to drive on the left and Spain used to be in UK timezone. Blame Franco & Hitler).