Replacing Kindle for PC in Linux

[haertig]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I'm not confusing anything. A number of people want to run some Windows programs under Linux. Just run them under Windows.

And if you fancy the Chevy floor mats, but own and prefer a Ford for everything else, you can always go out and buy a Chevy too. To get the floor mats.

Not everybody owns, needs or wants to own a Windows computer. K4PC is like the floor mats. Some that are technically inclined will drink some wine, and cut the Chevy floor mats to fit their Ford. Others will just use the Ford floor mats that fit better from the start.

[Quoth]

I was giving training, programming, selling etc Windows since 3.0.
NT since 3.5 in 1994.

I agree ME was rubbish. We replaced it with Win98SE or NT 4.0 depending if for games or office applications.

I've loads of engineering software that doesn't work at all on Windows 10, some on no later than XP/Server 2003 and many Visual Basic 6.0 applications that only work (if at all) on 32 bit versions of windows, most of those work on 64 bit Linux under 32 bit WINE. Some of the programmers are dead now.

MS themselves include VM software for Windows 10 and compatibility is so bad that the Compatibility Mode for many older applications is actually an entire copy of XP or Windows 7 on a VM. The SAME file will run on the included VM on Linux but often WINE works.

If Windows is working for someone, or if they are using Windows in a big company, then they don't need to change. If it isn't then Linux or Mac OS are real alternatives.

If Linux or Mac is working for someone, it's crazy to switch to Windows and simply annoying to be told Windows is better. It's different.

Edit:
We had our own Windows server at home from 1995 to 2007
NT 3.51, NT4.0, briefly Server 2003 + CentOS Linux, then Win2000 Server + CentOS.
Then by 2007 we had Ubuntu as server (Later Mint) and Win2000 was only used for WUS for XP, but down to 2 XP so Server 2000 dismembered.

Server has been Mint now for years. Only kernel upgrades need a reboot (at any time we choose, unlike Windows on occasion).

Son has a dual book PC Linux/Win10 for games and Linux laptop.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by haertig

And if you fancy the Chevy floor mats, but own and prefer a Ford for everything else, you can always go out and buy a Chevy too. To get the floor mats.

Not everybody owns, needs or wants to own a Windows computer. K4PC is like the floor mats. Some that are technically inclined will drink some wine, and cut the Chevy floor mats to fit their Ford. Others will just use the Ford floor mats that fit better from the start.

I'd give you Karma for this, but apparently I can't right now!

I just changed from a 2008 Ford to a 2008 Toyota. At least the steering wheel, gear change and foot pedals are the same.

[NullNix]

Originally Posted by rcentros

If someone asks me about Linux I ask them two questions. "Are you married to M$ Office?" and "Do you play a lot of PC games?" If the answer is "yes," to either question I tell them they'll probably be happier sticking with Windows. If they answer "no" to both, I help them look into Linux.

These days, it's also worth finding out if the games are AAA or indie. Indie games are *widely* supported on Linux. I mean I have literally hundreds by this point. They're just not your average 80GiB-download mass multiplayer shooter. (In general multiplayer online stuff is less supported because these days it tends to involve horrifyingly invasive Windows kernel nightmares, basically rootkits to prevent cheating. This is, unsurprisingly, an absolute no-go on Linux and will never work with WINE -- which means Steam's Proton -- either.)

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by haertig

Luckily, Windows does indeed work for most people. Yes, you have to deal with viruses and malware and updates and rebooting frequently and driver issues and having to throw a ridiculous amount of hardware at it to keep it running above a snails pace.

It's not 1995 any longer. All that stuff is FUD. The reason you might hear about malware on Windows is because that is what everyone uses. Mac and even Linux do have malware. You just hear about it less because it impacts far fewer people. Same goes for updates breaking things and everything else you mentioned.

Your average user running Windows 10 or 11 will never have a malware issue, same as your average Mac or Linux user.

I'm not anti-Linux. I like it quite a bit and it has made big strides since the days of Ubuntu 08.04 and GNOME 2. The problem is, as Linux has improved, so has Windows. And while there are some great Linux programs (Libre Office, Calibre, etc.), they tend to be ported over to Windows. But there are plenty of Windows programs (K4PC for instance, many computer games) that are not ported to Linux and are finicky to get working with WINE. So for an average user (like me) what is the appeal of dumping what came installed on my computer and continues to work for something that works, but is less robust?

I tried Wine with K4PC 1.17, tried letting Wine Tricks install 1.16 and tried Play on Linux. None worked for me, but on all my Windows PCs, it is a set it and forget it thing.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by NullNix

In general multiplayer online stuff is less supported because these days it tends to involve horrifyingly invasive Windows kernel nightmares, basically rootkits to prevent cheating.

I think consoles and Switch are more popular than Windows gaming now.

[haertig]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

It's not 1995 any longer. All that stuff is FUD.

Do you run anti-virus and/or anti-malware programs on your Windows computers? I don't use any of that on my Linux computers. But I wouldn't dream of it if my computers were Windows. I don't have to pay money to buy invasive software that degrades system performance. If you don't agree that it's invasive, just try to run Norton and McAfee together on the same computer. Even more fun, is to try to totally remove one or the other once you discover the disaster that was created.

So for an average user (like me) what is the appeal of dumping what came installed on my computer and continues to work for something that works, but is less robust?

It really depends on what's important to you. Me, I'm running my desktop on a 10+ year old CPU (15 years maybe?) and have 4Gb of installed memory. And it still runs rings around many Windows systems running on hardware an order of magnitude better and 10x the cost. This may or may not be important to you, but it is a factor for me. Not the only factor, but still a factor.

I'm not sure where you got the idea that Windows is more robust than Linux. Probably 99% of what you do online - shopping, banking, web forums, databases - that's all Linux. Every now and then you'll run into a Windows server. But by in large, when it comes to computing where things have to be reliable and, yes, "robust", everyone with an ounce of real world experience has switched to Linux. A long time ago. I'm not saying that there are zero Windows servers left out there, but there aren't very many relatively speaking. The ones you typically run into are the very specialized things - like a server that runs Microsoft Exchange email stuff.

As far as desktops, yes, more are Windows than Linux. That is not because Windows has proven itself more robust. It's because Windows comes preinstalled on just about every desktop computer you can buy. Due to manufacturer agreements with Microsoft, so that Microsoft can profit from more computer sales. It is beyond the average user to install a different OS. Microsoft is making sure of that by adding things with worthwhile sounding names like "trusted computing" and "secure boot". It just so happens that these little gems have the side effect of not allowing non-Microsoft OS'es to boot out of the box. And the average user does not know how to open the box, or even that they are boxed in in the first place, so they just continue running Windows because they know nothing else. For this type of user - and there are a ton of them - I would recommend they stick with Windows. And I'll keep buying their used two year old hardware that is no longer fast enough to run their desktop. For pennies on the dollar, and build powerful servers out of it for next to no cost.

A computer and the OS it runs are just a tool. And like automotive tools, some people can operate just fine using an adjustable Cresent wrench to fit everything. Others are appalled at this, and require five full sets of fixed wrenches with different head orientations and shaft lengths. Others say, "Wow! You have a Crescent wrench?! I just use slip-joint pliers for everything!"

To each his own.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I've read quite a bit of Linux upgrades breaking things. That's nothing unusual. Windows updates break things so much less then Linux. Windows updates don't normally break things.

I've been using Linux exclusively for over 16 years. Not once did an update break anything. I should mention, however, that I don't use "cutting edge" hardware or Linux distributions. This is another advantage of Linux, you can choose what distribution suits your needs best. I chose Linux Mint (and, before it, CentOS) because I like "stable" better than "cutting edge."

On the other hand, Windows updates have caused my wife numerous problems — twice I've had to completely rebuild her desktop (not on the newer computers, or recently, however — knock on wood). Fortunately I was able to save her files both times by using a Linux bootable USB drive. She dreads updates and tries to avoid them as long as possible but, at some point, Microsoft forces the issue. Mostly the problems are small now — the Bluetooth mouse stops working or sound card drivers don't update correctly (which causes BSODs) but these things are easy to fix. Now she's getting nagged to update to Windows 11, which she has zero interest in doing. With Linux you control your computer, with Windows it's a constant tug of war between you and Microsoft.

Okay, sorry for the rant. Just letting you know that your personal experience is opposite of mine. I'm curious, have you actually used Linux or are just parroting the anti-Linux FUD?

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by Quoth

No, my 25 years of Linux and 30 years of windows suggests it's the other way round by a huge margin.

Same here — though 16 years, not 25.

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I've been using Windows since Windows 3.1. And I suggest overall it's not as you say for Windows. Windows ME was the update that did break things. But I never installed it because of that.

Have you ever actually used Linux? Instead of one big update, that takes forever, Linux updates come in small increments that only take a couple minutes to install. When a vulnerability is discovered, you don't wait for the monthly update (and use workarounds until that date comes), you'll usually get security update notification within hours. Even then you choose when to install it. I guess that's one of the other main reasons I like Linux — you completely control your own computer.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

It's not 1995 any longer. All that stuff is FUD. The reason you might hear about malware on Windows is because that is what everyone uses. Mac and even Linux do have malware. You just hear about it less because it impacts far fewer people. Same goes for updates breaking things and everything else you mentioned.

Your average user running Windows 10 or 11 will never have a malware issue, same as your average Mac or Linux user.

I'm not anti-Linux. I like it quite a bit and it has made big strides since the days of Ubuntu 08.04 and GNOME 2. The problem is, as Linux has improved, so has Windows. And while there are some great Linux programs (Libre Office, Calibre, etc.), they tend to be ported over to Windows. But there are plenty of Windows programs (K4PC for instance, many computer games) that are not ported to Linux and are finicky to get working with WINE. So for an average user (like me) what is the appeal of dumping what came installed on my computer and continues to work for something that works, but is less robust?

I tried Wine with K4PC 1.17, tried letting Wine Tricks install 1.16 and tried Play on Linux. None worked for me, but on all my Windows PCs, it is a set it and forget it thing.

Very well said!

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by haertig

Do you run anti-virus and/or anti-malware programs on your Windows computers? I don't use any of that on my Linux computers. But I wouldn't dream of it if my computers were Windows. I don't have to pay money to buy invasive software that degrades system performance. If you don't agree that it's invasive, just try to run Norton and McAfee together on the same computer. Even more fun, is to try to totally remove one or the other once you discover the disaster that was created.

Why would anyone run Norton and McAfee together? I've been running the AV that comes with Windows for a long time and I don't even notice it. I see no need to pay for AV when what comes with Windows just works. I would never run Norton or McAfee.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by NullNix

These days, it's also worth finding out if the games are AAA or indie. Indie games are *widely* supported on Linux. I mean I have literally hundreds by this point. They're just not your average 80GiB-download mass multiplayer shooter. (In general multiplayer online stuff is less supported because these days it tends to involve horrifyingly invasive Windows kernel nightmares, basically rootkits to prevent cheating. This is, unsurprisingly, an absolute no-go on Linux and will never work with WINE -- which means Steam's Proton -- either.)

My kids (those still at home and the grown up ones) all now have Windows gaming machines. The last video game that I was any good at was Pong. So I fully admit that I'm ignorant about what games will run on Linux machines. I just know that my kids (in the past) were never interested in Linux because it wouldn't run "such and such" game. So my "two questions" may now be outdated — not that I'm really a Linux evangelist anyhow. The only time people ask me about Linux is if they see me using it.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by rcentros

I've been using Linux exclusively for over 16 years. Not once did an update break anything. I should mention, however, that I don't use "cutting edge" hardware or Linux distributions. This is another advantage of Linux, you can choose what distribution suits your needs best. I chose Linux Mint (and, before it, CentOS) because I like "stable" better than "cutting edge."

On the other hand, Windows updates have caused my wife numerous problems — twice I've had to completely rebuild her desktop (not on the newer computers, or recently, however — knock on wood). Fortunately I was able to save her files both times by using a Linux bootable USB drive. She dreads updates and tries to avoid them as long as possible but, at some point, Microsoft forces the issue. Mostly the problems are small now — the Bluetooth mouse stops working or sound card drivers don't update correctly (which causes BSODs) but these things are easy to fix. Now she's getting nagged to update to Windows 11, which she has zero interest in doing. With Linux you control your computer, with Windows it's a constant tug of war between you and Microsoft.

Okay, sorry for the rant. Just letting you know that your personal experience is opposite of mine. I'm curious, have you actually used Linux or are just parroting the anti-Linux FUD?

Here is an instance where a Linux update broke the DeACSM plugin. It's since been fixed. Start reading from here.

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sh...72#post4217272

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

It's not 1995 any longer. All that stuff is FUD. The reason you might hear about malware on Windows is because that is what everyone uses. Mac and even Linux do have malware. You just hear about it less because it impacts far fewer people. Same goes for updates breaking things and everything else you mentioned.

I wish that was true. If it was I wouldn't have to fix my wife's computers when an update causes problems. Usually now the problems are smaller than they used to be, but still there — something hangs in the update and I have to "prod it" to get it to complete. Until I do, the computer crawls. And the two times when I had to completely rebuild her desktop she was using Windows 10, not Windows from 1995.

I've never had any kind of malware on Linux in the 16 years I've used it exclusively (actually never before that). Windows has other issues, other than malware. Apparently Defender, itself (for example), is causing slow downs on Intel based computers. A bug of some kind.

https://www.pcgamer.com/windows-defe...on-intel-cpus/

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Your average user running Windows 10 or 11 will never have a malware issue, same as your average Mac or Linux user.

I don't know what an average "Windows user" is, but I do know that I've had to try to recover Windows machines that were infested with malware, but never once had to do so with a Linux machine. But I think you're right that this is more in the past than it is a current issue. With Linux it NEVER was an issue.
...

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

I tried Wine with K4PC 1.17, tried letting Wine Tricks install 1.16 and tried Play on Linux. None worked for me, but on all my Windows PCs, it is a set it and forget it thing.

K4PC 1.17 installs fine in Linux under Wine, it just won't connect. I would say it's more likely something Amazon has done to keep it from connecting than it is an issue with Wine. But, as you say, K4PC is a Windows program, not a native Linux application. For me it's not worth using Windows so I can use a small niche' program like K4PC.

[rcentros]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Why would anyone run Norton and McAfee together? I've been running the AV that comes with Windows for a long time and I don't even notice it. I see no need to pay for AV when what comes with Windows just works. I would never run Norton or McAfee.

Any of these degrade your performance on a Windows machine. Defender currently has a bug that degrades performance on Intel CPU based machines.