Authors are protesting Amazon's 'read and return' e-book policy

[Apache]

Originally Posted by haertig

There was just an article in today's Denver Post newspaper about large retailers who are implementing, or thinking about implementing, a "no return return policy". In other words, if you don't want something, let the retailer know that you want to return it and they will refund your money, but you don't have to return anything. They say "just keep it".

In a practical sense, that's pretty close to Amazon's eBook return policy. In other words, not a return policy at all. Just an invitation to fraud.

I thought Amazon's eBook return policy was something like 15 minutes. I used it once - scrambling to return the eBook I had just accidentally purchased. Somehow, I was looking at a book, decided I didn't really want it, then clicked on "Buy It Now" (or whatever the button says) when I really meant to click the X to close the window. Talk about an embarrassing brain fart! The book returned just fine and I wasn't charged for it. But I was under the impression that the return window was very short - minutes, not days.

Amazon has some really strange policies regarding eBook payment to the authors IMHO. Another one of their weird ones that I have read about on these forums, is some kind of "pay per page read" scheme. If that's truly the case, then authors never get paid a penny for my eBook purchases from Amazon. Since I keep my Kindle in Airplane Mode 100% of the time, Amazon must think that I never read any of the books that I purchase. I guess Amazon keeps all my money for themselves - screw the authors. This isn't fair to the authors, but I am under no obligation to allow my Kindle to connect to the internet. If the authors aren't paid because of that, that's an issue they should take up with Amazon, not me.

Years ago, Wal Mart implemented a return policy that did not require proof of purchase. I remember thinking that this would not last long and I was correct. They stopped it have a few months because people were returning items not purchased at Wal Mart. The fact that they thought this would actually work is quite amazing.
Apache

[Critteranne]

Originally Posted by Little.Egret

I wouldn't, recalling an author who didn:t correct "lead" to "led".

And Amazon UK allows 14 days, not 7 and print books can be returned.

The petition was created by a fan, not by an author.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Critteranne

The authors are also being charged additional fees when they publish via Amazon — such as the Kindle delivery fee IIRC. So the negative amount isn’t just the refund but any additional fees on top of that.

Authors are also reporting an uptick in returns. Some are linking it to TikTok creators promoting “read and return” as a money-saving “hack.”

Authors can end up owing Amazon money.

[Critteranne]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Amazon offers Look Inside and free sample download. Searching the author isn't hard. There should only be returns on paper for physical damage /unreadable print (Just once I saw a Grishon paper back so over inked as to be nearly unreadable) and none on ebooks.

Many readers have reported finding major problems that show up only after the part where the sample cuts off. Everything from editing issues to books that turned out to be screeds to realizing the author duped them into buying the same book twice.

Also, accidental purchases are way too easy because of the 1-Click button. It’s also possible to buy the same ebook twice of the publisher changes the edition.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by haertig

Amazon has some really strange policies regarding eBook payment to the authors IMHO. Another one of their weird ones that I have read about on these forums, is some kind of "pay per page read" scheme. If that's truly the case, then authors never get paid a penny for my eBook purchases from Amazon. Since I keep my Kindle in Airplane Mode 100% of the time, Amazon must think that I never read any of the books that I purchase. I guess Amazon keeps all my money for themselves - screw the authors. This isn't fair to the authors, but I am under no obligation to allow my Kindle to connect to the internet. If the authors aren't paid because of that, that's an issue they should take up with Amazon, not me.

Authors / Publishers shouldn't use KDP Select:
1) Gives Amazon a monopoly. It's free to upload elsewhere (Smashwords distribute to Barnes & Noble, Apple, Kobo etc) and nearly double sales.
2) Kindle Unlimited only pays per page "read" from a "pot". It relies on App or ereader or Fire using WiFi frequently. It benefits Amazon. It's a subscription system, yet unlike Satellite or Cable TV Amazon doesn't buy the content and decides how much to pay.

Also Amazon operates a Library system and don't buy the book.


The most abused thing by the public (and rising) is ebook returns. People reading for free and Amazon charges the Author/Publisher (except maybe not the big ones) that uses KDP.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Critteranne

Many readers have reported finding major problems that show up only after the part where the sample cuts off. Everything from editing issues to books that turned out to be screeds to realizing the author duped them into buying the same book twice.

Also, accidental purchases are way too easy because of the 1-Click button. It’s also possible to buy the same ebook twice of the publisher changes the edition.

There are mechanisms to stop that. The current return situation is wrong.

Also having no shopping basket stage for ebooks is wrong. That should be illegal.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by Quoth

There are mechanisms to stop that. The current return situation is wrong.

Also having no shopping basket stage for ebooks is wrong. That should be illegal.

This, too, is not comparable to sitting and browsing in a bookstore.
And this situation is to be considered when buying on the internet.
In my opinion, Amazon is doing it completely right.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

If an account abuses the ebook return policy, I suspect Amazon would take action. Up to and including closing the account.

They've always been quick to act in that way in the past with perceived account abuses. I see no reason to believe Amazon wouldn't do the same here.

I also see no reason for me to get involved in an Amazon/Author dispute. Especially when I see neither side as being objectively "right or wrong" on the issue.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by Quoth

Authors can end up owing Amazon money.

No, Quoth, they can't. They can only owe up to what they've been paid.

Also, there are almost NO mechanisms to stop books that turn into crap after the first chapter or two. I should know--I see them all the time.

I would not take the chances on Indy authors that I take now, were I not able to return wholly unsatisfactory books. Sorry, but you guys are all behaving as though every published book is some GEM. Trust me, they're not. And many of them start out okay, with promise and then die terrible horrible deaths in the saggy middle or worse. I have returned dreadful books. Does anybody here really think that the author would rather have me leave a review, explaining why the book is godawful, than simply getting back my $0.99-$2.99 or so???? I doubt that they would.

There ARE mechanisms in place to punish serial returners and close their accounts or bar them from buying eBooks. Stop thinking that those don't exist. As far as the braggarts, oh, yeah, right, because NOBODY ever told a lie on Youtube or TikTok, amirite?

As far as the pages-paid/read--that's only for books enrolled in KU. If you're not a KU customer, having your Kindle in airplane mode, etc. makes zip for difference. If you buy eBooks, then the pages read makes s**t for difference.

@Critteranne: No, the refund amount is not separate and apart from the delivery fees. The delivery fees are deducted from the gross sale amount. It's not like an author puts a book up for $2.99, has it returned, and has to replay his $2.10 royalty PLUS delivery fees. That's not how it works.

For that matter, when Amazon accepts returned paperbacks--which, for those of you not paying attention, it does--it doesn't whack the author at all. They simply resell the returned book. If they screwed up the printing and the returned book is unsaleable, they eat it. What, nobody wants to rant and rail about how unfair that is????

I've listened to bitching about eBooks being returned on the KDP forums for a baker's dozen years now, as it happens. 99% of the time, if you look at the eBook that the author is swearing was read-and-returned as a ripoff, it's painfully easy to see WHY the book was returned. I've seen exceedingly few that were rip-and-read.

Oh, I do want to add--I can't say that about porn/erotica/so-called-"romantica." Apparently, short stories and novellas that are porn DO get read and returned a LOT. So, the spicier your story, the greater your likelihood of returnage in this sort of "cheating" way. Nonetheless, Amazon is still very diligent about the sort of people who do this--don't forget, they are also being ripped-off and denied profit, right?--so they try to stop it in its tracks when it's abused, which is pretty early in a serial-returner's returning lifespan.

Hitch

[issybird]

^^Absolutely.

Two random comments: I’m not an Amazon fangirl, as I frequently find it irritating and/or incomprehensible, but I also don’t think they’re the great evil. And blaming Amazon because people are sleazy and dishonest seems misdirected to me; it’s not quite like blaming the victim since Amazon covers its posterior, but it’s close. Also, ultimately authors have a choice; they can suck it up or they can refuse to list on Amazon. Yup, I thought so. An unfortunate cost of doing most business involves allowing for the sleaze factor.

At least twice I’ve inadvertently bought a Kindle book and didn’t realize it for days, until I noticed it in my library. Seven days for a return seems reasonable to me and at that I’ve bought books where I didn’t see that the formatting made them unreadable until I got to them far beyond the return window.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by issybird

Seven days for a return seems reasonable to me and at that I’ve bought books where I didn’t see that the formatting made them unreadable until I got to them far beyond the return window.

Same here. I bought an ebook (from an author I'd had past experience with), and didn't begin reading it for several days. After beginning, it took me several more days before horrible formatting issues (no, not simple typos) prevented me from continuing. I returned the ebook, notified the author by email (who requested I forward my detailed info to the publisher--for whom he gave me an email address) and received an updated--DRM-Free--version of the ebook for my trouble.

I see no reason why legitimate returns should be restricted to hours or minutes simply because cheaters gonna cheat. Especially when repeat cheaters ARE going to get dinged for their habits.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I would not take the chances on Indy authors that I take now, were I not able to return wholly unsatisfactory books. Sorry, but you guys are all behaving as though every published book is some GEM. Trust me, they're not. And many of them start out okay, with promise and then die terrible horrible deaths in the saggy middle or worse. I have returned dreadful books. Does anybody here really think that the author would rather have me leave a review, explaining why the book is godawful, than simply getting back my $0.99-$2.99 or so???? I doubt that they would.

Huh. I've never returned a book because it didn't meet my extremely high standards. Do you walk out of a theater demanding a refund if the movie you saw sucked? Did you return your copy of CCR's Mardi Gras after realizing there were only two good songs on it? In the days of paper books, did you take your half read copy of Atlas Shrugged back to the book store for a refund when you figured out it was dreck?

I abide by the old adage: You pays your money, you takes your chances.

If you purchase a book after reading the synopsis, reading the reviews, reading the sample, you should live with it. If the book is a disaster, don't buy further books from that author. Feel free to add bad reviews. Maybe if others had done that, you wouldn't have bought the book in the first place. Help out your fellow man!

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by issybird

I’m not an Amazon fangirl, as I frequently find it irritating and/or incomprehensible, but I also don’t think they’re the great evil. And blaming Amazon because people are sleazy and dishonest seems misdirected to me; it’s not quite like blaming the victim since Amazon covers its posterior, but it’s close.

Who's claiming Amazon is evil? Noting that a policy isn't good is not passing moral judgement.

At least twice I’ve inadvertently bought a Kindle book and didn’t realize it for days, until I noticed it in my library. Seven days for a return seems reasonable to me...

And what happens if you don't notice it until the eighth day?

[issybird]

No matter how hard people try to push the narrative that digital content and real content are the same experience, they’re not. I’ve (obviously) not made a study of it, but I’m quite sure it’s been done, and exhaustively, involving considerations of ease of acquisition and delivery and to what extent buyer’s remorse should be assuaged. That is, I can well believe that tolerance of some mind-changing on a product that can be bought so easily by the consumer and involving little if any added cost to the purveyor, leads to higher sales than it otherwise would.

The TL; DR: going to the movies involves a lot more effort on the part of the customer and as a result, they’ve vetted the purchase more carefully in advance, but increased sales overall probably result from taking advantage from “see, click, have” when some buyers know they can change their minds if it doesn’t work out. Cheap prices on self-pubbed books are another example; make it cheap enough and most won’t bother to return it anyway.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Huh. I've never returned a book because it didn't meet my extremely high standards. Do you walk out of a theater demanding a refund if the movie you saw sucked? Did you return your copy of CCR's Mardi Gras after realizing there were only two good songs on it? In the days of paper books, did you take your half read copy of Atlas Shrugged back to the book store for a refund when you figured out it was dreck?

Seriously? So, you, what, enabled the author to keep the money, without a bad review or a return? Giving them no indication that their A-Game, isn't? You're not really doing them much favor, are you?

I abide by the old adage: You pays your money, you takes your chances.

Noooo. Why should I? Amazon has enabled any Tom, Dick or Harriet to publish, which is all well and good, but does that mean I have to endorse and enable them with MY hard-earned? No, brother. No. I'm helping them if they understand that they've done something wrong in that book. I still maintain that they'd rather have me return the dough, then write a review. The dough is a pain in passing--a bad review lasts forever. (Given how few authors today use crit or writing groups....which they should, and don't, they're lucky if they don't engender more bad reviews.)

If you purchase a book after reading the synopsis, reading the reviews, reading the sample, you should live with it. If the book is a disaster, don't buy further books from that author. Feel free to add bad reviews. Maybe if others had done that, you wouldn't have bought the book in the first place. Help out your fellow man!

Sorry, but the free sample doesn't always show you the heinous flaws. As I said--I had one that started out pretty great and then, OMG, it hit the saggy middle and it simply fell through the floor. Tedious doesn't begin to describe it. And I've seen some that simply cobbled together an ending, that made NO sense. I just had a book from an author that I typically like--and if that ending wasn't the writer's equivalent of DWI, I'm damned. The book was fine; it had this plot element that made me scrunch up my forehead and then they had this idiotic explanation for it. DUH. I didn't return it, but...I was tempted. It was soooooooooooo stupid. For a writer with her experience--over 15 years'--it wasn't just a mistake, it was laziness.

Hitch