Ethics and legalities of format shifting

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by jhowell

I agree. You have a valid point there.

I'm tempted to download a DRM free eBook, get it in DRMed KFX and call Amazon and ask them to remove the DRM.

[Sirtel]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I'm tempted to download a DRM free eBook, get it in DRMed KFX and call Amazon and ask them to remove the DRM.

Certainly it would be interesting to know what they'll say to you.

[Thasaidon]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

Hmm AFAIK most of the active members here on MR do this, occasionally at least. The question then arises, why are you hanging out with such wicked villains in such a den of iniquity?

I Like it.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

If the eBooks are in Mobi or KF8, the key that's needed to remove the DRM is the device serial number.

Yes - with Cxxxxxe and plugin.

But since I delete all Kindle books from Amazon and from my mobile devices immediately after reading them, it doesn't really matter.

I learned from experience:
A reader with a soft-DRMed epub was stolen from me years ago, and this book turned up unchanged on pirate websites. I was lucky that I immediately filed a theft report. That saved me from a trial.

Since then there have only been hard DRM books on my devices.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

No need. The Oasis is a fine reader.

Compared to?
For a "fine" reader, in my opinion, much more is required.
The OASIS has the buttons in the wrong places for me - if so, then I don't want them on the device, but on a remote control.
The lighting is poor compared to the smaller, but completely evenly lit Boox-Poke 2/3.
And then the biggest negative - I can practically only read Amazon books on it.
Etc.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Oh yes - of course in plain text, easy to find and consist of "123456"

The encryption keys for books downloaded to a physical Kindle are based on the Kindle's serial number. That's all the DeDRM plugin needs to be able to decrypt the books on the device. The serial number is obtained through the on-screen menus. On the Kindle I have in front of me, it's Menu/Settings/Device Options/Device Info

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

@ottischwenk, let's say I have a spare iPad and I've installed the Kobo app. I download some eBooks on it that I've already read and I loan this iPad to a friend. The eBooks on the iPad are licensed to the Kobo app on the iPad. Is it illegal for my friend to read these eBooks? If it is, can you show me where the law says it's illegal? I'd like to know for the US, UK, and EU.

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

No, this procedure complies with the law.
It is also equivalent to passing on several purchased paper books.

You are both wrong. Doing so is illegal.

When you sign up with Kobo, you agree to their terms and conditions. Break those conditions and your license to read the book is no longer valid.

One of their terms and conditions is that the licence is valid only for the person buying the licence. No-one else, not friend, not child, not spouse, is allowed to read the copy, even on a device authorised to the original purchaser's account.

I asked Kobo about this back in 2012. The full email chain (most recent first) is in the block at the end of this post.

So I very much hope, given their high moral tone, that ottischwenk has never allowed anyone to read one of ottischwenk's books on one of ottischwenk's devices. For if they have, then they are a thief, by their own definition.

Recently you requested personal assistance from our on-line support=20
center. Below is a summary of your request and our response.

If this issue is not resolved to your satisfaction, you may reopen it=20
within the next 10 days.

Thank you for allowing us to be of service to you.

Subject
---------------------------------------------------------------
Terms of Use


Discussion Thread
---------------------------------------------------------------
Response Via Email(Ofelia C) - 10/23/2012 09:23 AM
Hi Paul,

Thank you for contacting Kobo Customer Care. We are happy to hear that yo=
u are are content with our terms of use.

Enjoy!

Sincerely,
The Kobo Team

Customer By Email (Paul Durrant) - 10/22/2012 05:40 PM
Dear Kobo,

Many thanks for the reply. I am rather surprised by it, given the relativ=
e costs of paperbacks and ebooks. But cost is certainly another issue ent=
irely. I am happy for this incident to be marked closed.

regards,

Paul

On 22 Oct 2012, at 22:01, Kobo Customer Care wrote:

>=20
>

Response Via Email(Ofelia C) - 10/22/2012 05:01 PM
Hi Paul,

Thank you for contacting Kobo Customer Care.=20

Legally, only the account holder has license to use the material.=20

Hope this clarifies.

Sincerely,
The Kobo Team

Customer By Email (Paul Durrant) - 10/18/2012 05:55 PM
Dear Kobo Customer Care,

Thank you for your response to my question, but it seems to be a technica=
l rather than legal answer to my question. Obviously no-one is able read =
my books (the DRMed ones, anyway) unless they have access to my account, =
i.e. have a device authorised to my Adobe ID.

But I am asking about the licence terms.

May I let my spouse read ebooks that I have bought (on a device authorise=
d to my Adobe ID)?
May I let my children read ebooks that I have bought (on a device authori=
sed to my Adobe ID)?
May I let a close friend read ebooks that I have bought (on a device auth=
orised to my Adobe ID)?

I'm sorry to go on about this, but I do want to understand how many copie=
s of an ebook you expect a household to buy if everyone in the household =
wants to read it. Your licence terms seem to imply that a copy needs to b=
e bought for everyone who wants to read the ebook.

Yours,

Paul Durrant.

On 18 Oct 2012, at 19:22, Kobo Customer Care wrote:

>=20
>

Response Via Email(Ofelia C) - 10/18/2012 02:22 PM
Hi Paul,

Thank you for contacting Kobo Customer Care. We are happy to offer clarif=
ication regarding "9. Literary Works. (Terms of Use)

In answer to your question, nobody - the only way you can share is by giv=
ing someone access to your account.=20

Hope this helps.

Sincerely,
The Kobo Team

Response Via Email(Dan A) - 10/18/2012 11:52 AM
Hi Paul,

Thank you for contacting Kobo Customer Care. We=E2=80=99ve escalated your=
 issue to our Tier 2 support team.=20

The Tier 2 team will try to provide a resolution as soon as possible and =
will contact you if they require additional information in order to resol=
ve your issue.

Please let us know if you have any questions or concerns.

Sincerely,
The Kobo Team

Auto-Response - 10/18/2012 06:25 AM
Thank you for contacting Kobo Customer Care.  Your question has been rece=
ived and you can anticipate a response within 24-48 hours.


Customer By Email (Paul Durrant) - 10/18/2012 06:25 AM
Dear Kobo,

A question about terms of use, specifically item 9:

"9. Literary Works.
All literary works at kobobooks.com are the exclusive property of the pub=
lisher or its licensors and is protected by copyright and other intellect=
ual property laws. The download of these literary works is intended for K=
obo's Registered Users' personal and non-commercial use. Any other use of=
 literary works downloaded from kobobooks.com is strictly prohibited. Reg=
istered Users may not modify, transmit, publish, participate in the trans=
fer or sale of, reproduce, create derivative works from, distribute, perf=
orm, display, or in any way exploit, any of the content of these literary=
 works, in whole or in part. By downloading literary works from kobobooks=
=2Ecom, the Registered User hereby acknowledges and agrees to these terms=
=2E"

When I buy a Kobo book, who else am I authorised to allow to read it?

e.g.
Spouse?
Child?
Child at University?
Parent?
Sister-in-law?
Nephew?
Close friend?

Or no-one at all?

regards,

Paul Durrant

Question Reference #121018-000212
---------------------------------------------------------------
  Product Level 1: Kobo eReader
  Product Level 2: Touch
 Category Level 1: Accounts
 Category Level 2: Setup Inquiries
     Date Created: 10/18/2012 06:25 AM
     Last Updated: 10/23/2012 09:23 AM
  Geo Interaction:=20

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

You are both wrong. Doing so is illegal.

No, it contradicts the terms and conditions, but not the law.

Whereby this approach:

In answer to your question, nobody - the only way you can share is by giving someone access to your account.

could be a violation of the law.

Thus, all of the conclusions drawn from this are wrong.

The only option Kobo has is to close the account.

Apart from that, I avoid Kobo-Rakuten, among other things because they are not able to produce properly, really reliable devices - unlike Amazon.

However, the last Kobo device I struggled with was a Kobo Glo HD and my experience with Kobo and especially with the updates was: 1 till 3 bugs fixed, 1 till 4 bugs added, but never without errors.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

The encryption keys for books downloaded to a physical Kindle are based on the Kindle's serial number. That's all the DeDRM plugin needs to be able to decrypt the books on the device. The serial number is obtained through the on-screen menus. On the Kindle I have in front of me, it's Menu/Settings/Device Options/Device Info

kfx files cannot be DRM exempted, even with existing serial numbers.

[murraypaul]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

No, it contradicts the terms and conditions, but not the law.

By your own arguments:

1) You only have the right to read the book because of a license you have bought. Without that license, you have no right to read the book.

2) By violating the terms and conditions, you lose the right to use the license you have purchased.

3) Reading the book without a valid license makes you a thief.

Therefore, by your definitions, you are a thief.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by murraypaul

By your own arguments:

1) You only have the right to read the book because of a license you have bought. Without that license, you have no right to read the book.

2) By violating the terms and conditions, you lose the right to use the license you have purchased.

3) Reading the book without a valid license makes you a thief.

Therefore, by your definitions, you are a thief.

It's up to me to give away a license for free - just like a paper book.
This is also anchored in copyright law (software).
But then I am not allowed to use this file.
And that's what I do when I loan the Reader out.
Your conclusion is wrong here too.

[ottischwenk]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

I'm tempted to download a DRM free eBook, get it in DRMed KFX and call Amazon and ask them to remove the DRM.

KFX is not just an encryption, but a layout with additional display / setting options.
Only if a reader or an app cannot cope with it will it be switched to lower features (azw, mobi).
That is why there is also the compulsory update for K4PC.

[Quoth]

Originally Posted by Sirtel

The only foolproof DRM is the one that demands verification and internet connection every time you open a book. Some publishers and booksellers use such a DRM in their proprietary apps. Not Amazon and Kobo, though.

Which certainly will be illegal if it ever is in court.

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

It's up to me to give away a license for free - just like a paper book.
This is also anchored in copyright law (software).
But then I am not allowed to use this file.
And that's what I do when I loan the Reader out.
Your conclusion is wrong here too.

You argue that one buys a licence, not a book. That licence is not transferrable. So you may not let someone else read it without breaking the terms of the licence.

If you have ever loaned one of your devices with Kobo books on it to someone else for them to read a Kobo book, you are, by your own interpretation of the laws, a thief.

Of course, I think your interpretations are a load of old dingo's kidneys. But that's a separate issue.

[Thasaidon]

Originally Posted by pdurrant

Of course, I think your interpretations are a load of old dingo's kidneys. But that's a separate issue.

Could be that ottischwenk was brought up by Vogons.
Hence his views on law and rules.