Ethics and legalities of format shifting - Page 13

JSWolf · 01-03-2021, 05:48 PM

@ottischwenk, let's say I have a spare iPad and I've installed the Kobo app. I download some eBooks on it that I've already read and I loan this iPad to a friend. The eBooks on the iPad are licensed to the Kobo app on the iPad. Is it illegal for my friend to read these eBooks? If it is, can you show me where the law says it's illegal? I'd like to know for the US, UK, and EU.

JSWolf · 01-03-2021, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Quoth

Also if you reset your Kindle and Amazon's servers are down, or you have no internet, or Amazon orphans that model or gets out of ebooks, then ebooks with DRM are unreadable.

Amazon already did that. They sold eBooks before the Kindle and they did stop selling eBooks. When Amazon stopped selling eBooks, if you needed to update the DRM, you could not. If you needed to download again, you could not. Amazon basically screwed you over. The DRM servers were not offline or taken down. It was Amazon that decoded not to support the eBooks they sold.

JSWolf · 01-03-2021, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirtel

And the thief will be able to remove the DRM and to distribute illegally to the whole world if he/she wants. The DRM is no protection against thieves.

Not if the eBooks are in KFX format.

Sirtel · 01-03-2021, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Not if the eBooks are in KFX format.

They used to be de-DRMable too, but Amazon cracked down on it recently, yes.

ottischwenk · 01-03-2021, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

@ottischwenk, let's say I have a spare iPad and I've installed the Kobo app. I download some eBooks on it that I've already read and I loan this iPad to a friend. The eBooks on the iPad are licensed to the Kobo app on the iPad. Is it illegal for my friend to read these eBooks?

No, this procedure complies with the law.
It is also equivalent to passing on several purchased paper books.

JSWolf · 01-03-2021, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

Yes that is correctNo, that is very wrong.
He would have to open each page and take a photo of it, merge the individual images, run OCR over it, correct the text and then create an ebook from it.
Without the account data, he cannot do anything with the files except to look at them - otherwise it is garbage.

If the eBooks are in Mobi or KF8, the key that's needed to remove the DRM is the device serial number.

binaryhermit · 01-03-2021, 06:18 PM

IIRC someone got a copy of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows early and uploaded pictures of every page.

The internet did their thing and the result was an unofficial ebook came out before the book officially came out.

EDIT: As in, it was transcribed to text form before the book officially came out, I'm not exactly sure what that means in technical terms.

JSWolf · 01-03-2021, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottischwenk

No - perhaps you think so.
But you bought a license for a file, that must not be changed.
It is copyright law.

There is an exception that if you are disabled, you are allowed to remove the DRM and modify the eBook to allow you to read it.

Also, there is precedence for removing DRM. When Tor decided to sell eBooks without DRM, the first eBook to be sold without DRM was Redshirts by John Scalzi. Now some eBook store had difficulty getting setup to sell without DRM and that included Amazon. Both the author and Tor gave permission for the DRM to be removed. The links to Calibre and the DeDRM plugin were given and said it was OK to remove the DRM. Also, Tor allows DRM to be removed in cases where you can no longer download a new copy without DRM.

So can you say that DRM removal is illegal when it is allowed by the publisher and the authors? It's also possible that fair use may trump DRM. It's not yet been legally challenged. So can you honestly say that removing the DRM is illegal until this has been decided in a court of law?

Read the blog post at the following link. It written by John Scalzi and it contains a link to get the DeDRM plugin.

https://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/06/...e-re-redshirts

Now this blog post also by John Sclazi says you can format shift and share with a friend.

https://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/06/...-and-redshirts

JSWolf · 01-03-2021, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirtel

They used to be de-DRMable too, but Amazon cracked down on it recently, yes.

Amazon is clamping down on KFX DRM removal by allowing the DRM to be changeable. I wonder if KFX is illegal because of Amazon forcing DRM when the publisher or author says no to DRM.

JSWolf · 01-03-2021, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by binaryhermit

IIRC someone got a copy of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows early and uploaded pictures of every page.

The internet did their thing and the result was an unofficial ebook came out before the book officially came out.

EDIT: As in, it was transcribed to text form before the book officially came out, I'm not exactly sure what that means in technical terms.

In technical terms it means it was scanned and OCRed. Some copies were rushed so fast that there were very many errors in the eBooks. I did see the first eBook copy of the 7th book and it was a right mess full of errors because it was rushed to get it out there on the net. I did buy the book so I was not stealing it. I just wanted to take a look at the eBook. I don't have that eBook is it was deleted without really being read.

binaryhermit · 01-03-2021, 06:57 PM

I more meant what format exactly the "eBook" was in...
and IIRC it was crowdsourced manual transcription of low quality pictures of pages like one might find on a cameraphone circa mid-2007 about a month after the iPhone came out.

jhowell · 01-03-2021, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Amazon is clamping down on KFX DRM removal by allowing the DRM to be changeable. I wonder if KFX is illegal because of Amazon forcing DRM when the publisher or author says no to DRM.

What law would that violate?

I suspect it comes down to what the contract between Amazon and the publisher says about DRM, if anything.

JSWolf · 01-03-2021, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by binaryhermit

I more meant what format exactly the "eBook" was in...
and IIRC it was crowdsourced manual transcription of low quality pictures of pages like one might find on a cameraphone circa mid-2007 about a month after the iPhone came out.

It was at least ePub, PDF, and Mobi.

JSWolf · 01-03-2021, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhowell

What law would that violate?

I suspect it comes down to what the contract between Amazon and the publisher says about DRM, if anything.

False advertising for one.

Redshirts by John Scalzi

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0079XPUOW

Quote:

At the Publisher's request, this title is being sold without Digital Rights Management Software (DRM) applied

It doesn't say DRM for KFX and no DRM for Mobi and KF8. It says no DRM. Given that KFX will come with DRM, that is false advertising.

jhowell · 01-03-2021, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

False advertising for one.

I agree. You have a valid point there.

01-03-2021, 06:18 PM	#187
binaryhermit Grand Sorcerer Posts: 5,732 Karma: 20469902 Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Lockport, IL Device: Kindle PW4, Kindle Paperwhite Signature Edition	IIRC someone got a copy of Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows early and uploaded pictures of every page. The internet did their thing and the result was an unofficial ebook came out before the book officially came out. EDIT: As in, it was transcribed to text form before the book officially came out, I'm not exactly sure what that means in technical terms. Last edited by binaryhermit; 01-03-2021 at 06:22 PM.

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01-03-2021, 05:48 PM	#181
JSWolf Resident Curmudgeon Posts: 79,877 Karma: 146918083 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Roslindale, Massachusetts Device: Kobo Libra 2, Kobo Aura H2O, PRS-650, PRS-T1, nook STR, PW3	@ottischwenk, let's say I have a spare iPad and I've installed the Kobo app. I download some eBooks on it that I've already read and I loan this iPad to a friend. The eBooks on the iPad are licensed to the Kobo app on the iPad. Is it illegal for my friend to read these eBooks? If it is, can you show me where the law says it's illegal? I'd like to know for the US, UK, and EU.

01-03-2021, 06:57 PM	#191
binaryhermit Grand Sorcerer Posts: 5,732 Karma: 20469902 Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: Lockport, IL Device: Kindle PW4, Kindle Paperwhite Signature Edition	I more meant what format exactly the "eBook" was in... and IIRC it was crowdsourced manual transcription of low quality pictures of pages like one might find on a cameraphone circa mid-2007 about a month after the iPhone came out.