Font behavior of different e-readers

[beiti]

I already did tests of different fonts on different e-readers (in case I have to embed one). For books to sell it's always a legal issue, too. (One more reason to avoid embedding if possible.) Most font collections include the right to use them für print and PDF, but not for EPUB. But I do have some fonts I'm allowed to use in my ebooks – and "America Typewriter" happens to be one of them. What also works is "Courier Prime". Both look okay (but not always perfect) on different e-readers I tried.

BTW I found out that there can also be a difference between different readers with 800x600 resolution. The old Kindles seem to use a different font rendering method than e.g. the Tolinos. On Kindle everything looks sharper, but with some fonts also less smooth (what makes using alternative fonts more difficult). The Kindle 800x600-devices work best with the built-in Caecilia font (easier to read than Bookerly on the higher resolution Kindles, if you ask me). And of courese there are different font sizes which make a difference, too. Very hard to find a font to embed that works everywhere, so embedding will never be my first choice.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by beiti

I already did tests of different fonts on different e-readers (in case I have to embed one). For books to sell it's always a legal issue, too. (One more reason to avoid embedding if possible.) Most font collections include the right to use them für print and PDF, but not for EPUB. But I do have some fonts I'm allowed to use in my ebooks – and "America Typewriter" happens to be one of them. What also works is "Courier Prime". Both look okay (but not always perfect) on different e-readers I tried.

BTW I found out that there can also be a difference between different readers with 800x600 resolution. The old Kindles seem to use a different font rendering method than e.g. the Tolinos. On Kindle everything looks sharper, but with some fonts also less smooth (what makes using alternative fonts more difficult). The Kindle 800x600-devices work best with the built-in Caecilia font (easier to read than Bookerly on the higher resolution Kindles, if you ask me). And of courese there are different font sizes which make a difference, too. Very hard to find a font to embed that works everywhere, so embedding will never be my first choice.

I have a stoopid question:

How do you know that you named these fonts correctly? I mean, I deal with this sort of thing all the time. How do you know that Bitter isn't "Bitter_reg" or Bitter_Normal? You have "Source Sans," but my Source Sans are all named something like "Source Sans Pro" or the like.

Baskerville? Hell, which one? BaskervilleMtStd-Regular, or ITC New Baskerville Roman, or...well, you get the idea. I run into this in Archetype, often--if I don't name the precise weight of the font I want, it doesn't work at all.

Your embedded fonts work because a) they're embedded and b) they're identified--named. Those you're trying to call, not so much.

I just think that part of the problem here is that you're using generic, "street" names for fonts and they can be, IME, downright picky, particular and persnickety about that stuff.

One last comment--any bookmaker worth their salt can make a Kindle ebook in which they can grace the book with a body font that the reader can override with a click. Thus, best of both worlds--can see if if'n they wanna, can turn it off if'n they wanna, don'tcha know?

Hitch

[beiti]

Originally Posted by Hitch

How do you know that you named these fonts correctly?

I don't. Do you have an idea how I could find out?

Maybe I found one hint: When I connect my Tolino to the computer, I can see a folder named 'fonts'. It only contains one file that's called 'size.csv'.
If I open that file with an editor, it looks like that:

Bitter,16,18,20,23,26,31,38,48,64,82,102
Droid Serif,16,18,20,23,26,31,38,48,64,82,102
Fira Mono OT,15,17,19,22,26,31,38,48,64,82,102
Fira Sans OT,16,18,20,23,26,31,38,49,65,83,103
OpenDyslexic,15,17,19,22,25,29,36,46,63,,81,101
Source Sans Pro,18,20,22,25,29,34,42,53,67,85,105
Vollkorn,19,21,23,26,30,36,44,56,70,88,108

I'm not sure what these values mean (maybe the steps of font sizes I can set?), but there are obviously the names of the fonts in here. And you're right about the 'Source Sans Pro'. But e.g. 'Bitter' and 'Vollkorn' and 'OpenDyslexic' are spelled exactly as a did in my stylesheet, and the Tolino didn't show them anyway.

BTW 'Fira Mono OT' is not in the list I can choose from in the device settings, so maybe that's the mysterious Courier-like monospace font that only shows up when I assign 'monospace'.

any bookmaker worth their salt can make a Kindle ebook in which they can grace the book with a body font that the reader can override with a click. Thus, best of both worlds--can see if if'n they wanna, can turn it off if'n they wanna, don'tcha know?

There's a catch: As soon as you select a different font on the device, not just the body font is replaced but every font in the whole ebook – even if it is an important one like a Symbol font or an exotic language font. So if you don't want to risk ruining the layout, you better leave your device on the 'Publisher font' setting.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by beiti

I don't. Do you have an idea how I could find out?

Well...obviously, that's one of the benefits of embedding. You know what it's named.

Maybe I found one hint: When I connect my Tolino to the computer, I can see a folder named 'fonts'. It only contains one file that's called 'size.csv'.
If I open that file with an editor, it looks like that:

Bitter,16,18,20,23,26,31,38,48,64,82,102
Droid Serif,16,18,20,23,26,31,38,48,64,82,102
Fira Mono OT,15,17,19,22,26,31,38,48,64,82,102
Fira Sans OT,16,18,20,23,26,31,38,49,65,83,103
OpenDyslexic,15,17,19,22,25,29,36,46,63,,81,101
Source Sans Pro,18,20,22,25,29,34,42,53,67,85,105
Vollkorn,19,21,23,26,30,36,44,56,70,88,108

I'm not sure what these values mean (maybe the steps of font sizes I can set?), but there are obviously the names of the fonts in here. And you're right about the 'Source Sans Pro'. But e.g. 'Bitter' and 'Vollkorn' and 'OpenDyslexic' are spelled exactly as a did in my stylesheet, and the Tolino didn't show them anyway.

Well, at first, that seems like it would make sense, but all those odd font sizes, like 15, 17, etc.--something's off about that. That's not how most fonts are designed, typically.

BTW 'Fira Mono OT' is not in the list I can choose from in the device settings, so maybe that's the mysterious Courier-like monospace font that only shows up when I assign 'monospace'.

Dunno.

There's a catch: As soon as you select a different font on the device, not just the body font is replaced but every font in the whole ebook – even if it is an important one like a Symbol font or an exotic language font. So if you don't want to risk ruining the layout, you better leave your device on the 'Publisher font' setting.

I hate to tell you this, but are you aware that when you turn on a book in a PPW family device--PPW, Voyage, Oasis--that the Publisher Font option is NOT the default and that the user has to actively turn it ON? And without that, they'll see what you're describing?

And that apparently, most PPW family device users don't know that option--publisher font--even exists?

Truly.

Hitch

[beiti]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I hate to tell you this, but are you aware that when you turn on a book in a PPW family device--PPW, Voyage, Oasis--that the Publisher Font option is NOT the default and that the user has to actively turn it ON?

My experience with Kindle Paperwhite is a bit different. There are two very different scenarios.

If the ebook file contains at least one embedded font, I get the "Publisher Font" option as a default. In this case, all the embedded fonts are automatically shown as intended by the ebook publisher. If there is no embedded general/body font (most ebooks use embedded fonts only for special paragraphs), then the main text is shown in Bookerly, but the special paragraphs still use the embedded fonts. If I switch to any of the other options (font names), the whole text – even the special paragraphs – uses this newly selected font and the embedded fonts are ignored.

If the ebook file doesn't contain any embedded fonts, the "Publisher Font" option is not available in the first place. Instead, Bookerly is pre-selected as default. I can select any of the other fonts, but not "Publisher Font" since it isn't there. But even if I choose one of the other fonts, the font definitions in the css file are still honored. So when I assign e.g. 'monospace' or one of the built-in font names like 'Caecilia' to some paragraphs, these paragraphs are always shown in these assigned fonts. (But as soon as only one font is embedded, this behaviour changes.)
So if I want to make sure that my font choices for special paragraphs are honored independently of the device setting, I shouldn't embed anything and better stick with the built-in fonts.

(That's the situation with Kindle Paperwhite. ADE based e-readers like my Tolino are a different story.)

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by beiti

My experience with Kindle Paperwhite is a bit different. There are two very different scenarios.

If the ebook file contains at least one embedded font, I get the "Publisher Font" option as a default. In this case, all the embedded fonts are automatically shown as intended by the ebook publisher. If there is no embedded general/body font (most ebooks use embedded fonts only for special paragraphs), then the main text is shown in Bookerly, but the special paragraphs still use the embedded fonts. If I switch to any of the other options (font names), the whole text – even the special paragraphs – uses this newly selected font and the embedded fonts are ignored.

If the ebook file doesn't contain any embedded fonts, the "Publisher Font" option is not available in the first place. Instead, Bookerly is pre-selected as default. I can select any of the other fonts, but not "Publisher Font" since it isn't there. But even if I choose one of the other fonts, the font definitions in the css file are still honored. So when I assign e.g. 'monospace' or one of the built-in font names like 'Caecilia' to some paragraphs, these paragraphs are always shown in these assigned fonts. (But as soon as only one font is embedded, this behaviour changes.)
So if I want to make sure that my font choices for special paragraphs are honored independently of the device setting, I shouldn't embed anything and better stick with the built-in fonts.

(That's the situation with Kindle Paperwhite. ADE based e-readers like my Tolino are a different story.)

I don't know what model of device you have, but in the 3 PPW family devices that we have here, for testing, NOT ONE opens up with the book in Publisher Font. Is it available? Yes. Is it the way the book opens? No.

Hitch

[beiti]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I don't know what model of device you have

Kindle Paperwhite WiFi, DP75SDI, Firmware 5.12.4

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by beiti

So if I want to make sure that my font choices for special paragraphs are honored independently of the device setting, I shouldn't embed anything and better stick with the built-in fonts.

Amazon fixed that quirk in the KFX (Enhanced Typesetting) renderer. In that format the font selected by the user only changes the main font. Any other embedded or called out fonts in the book are left unchanged.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by jhowell

Amazon fixed that quirk in the KFX (Enhanced Typesetting) renderer. In that format the font selected by the user only changes the main font. Any other embedded or called out fonts in the book are left unchanged.

Yes, it's the LURE. To try to get us to use KFX, not MOBI and it's infuriating.

JHowell, do YOU see the Publisher font as the default font, the opening option on your eInks/PPW-family devices?

Hitch

[beiti]

Originally Posted by jhowell

the font selected by the user only changes the main font. Any other embedded or called out fonts in the book are left unchanged.

I just tried the Kindle app on Android for comparison. It behaves exactly like that – although my test ebook did not go through the Enhanced Typesetting renderer.
On the Android app, changing the font from Bookerly to Publisher Font doesn't even make a difference as long a there is no embedded body font. So you can choose a different body font of your choice, but embedded fonts in special paragraphs stay there. That's exactly how it should be (IMO).

Maybe the problem only applies to "older" Paperwhite models like mine.

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by Hitch

JHowell, do YOU see the Publisher font as the default font, the opening option on your eInks/PPW-family devices?

When I open a book I usually see whatever font I most recently selected as the default font. If I last selected Publisher font and the book does not have one then my most recently selected non-publisher font is used instead for that one book, but it will again use Publisher if I later open a different book that has one.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by beiti

I already did tests of different fonts on different e-readers (in case I have to embed one). For books to sell it's always a legal issue, too. (One more reason to avoid embedding if possible.) Most font collections include the right to use them für print and PDF, but not for EPUB. But I do have some fonts I'm allowed to use in my ebooks – and "America Typewriter" happens to be one of them. What also works is "Courier Prime". Both look okay (but not always perfect) on different e-readers I tried.

BTW I found out that there can also be a difference between different readers with 800x600 resolution. The old Kindles seem to use a different font rendering method than e.g. the Tolinos. On Kindle everything looks sharper, but with some fonts also less smooth (what makes using alternative fonts more difficult). The Kindle 800x600-devices work best with the built-in Caecilia font (easier to read than Bookerly on the higher resolution Kindles, if you ask me). And of courese there are different font sizes which make a difference, too. Very hard to find a font to embed that works everywhere, so embedding will never be my first choice.

Another example is that the old Sony Readers at 800x600 had a rather good font rendering engine but the nook STR has a terrible font rendering engine. Same screens, but you'd think they were two different fonts.

One o the problems is that Mobi has no embedded fonts so whatever you embed for your typewriter will not work. You'd need to do something like monospace or san-serif. But By default, Kobo doesn't work with monospace unless a font named courier is installed in the fonts directory.

Some programs such as Marvin (for iOS) don't work with embedded fonts when set to allow overrides. I've tried to get the author to fix this, but he didn't and now Marvin is abandonware.

There is no solution where embedded fonts will work in all cases. So don't do it if you don't have to.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by beiti

Kindle Paperwhite WiFi, DP75SDI, Firmware 5.12.4

Doesn't matter what 5.12.4 does with fonts. It's been pulled and most people won't have it. Plus, there are all the older Kindles that cannot run 5.12.4. This is from the PW1 on down. They won't have any new firmware updates that have any new features. So you cannot rely on Amazon changing how fonts work on PW2 on up as that won't mean squat to anyone with a PW1 on down. That's the problem with Amazon. They didn't think things through correctly. They should have been able to make more devices run the current firmware.

Kobo did it and the old devices can run the new firmware.

[JSWolf]

What Amazon should have done with fonts from day one of KF8 is have the Kindle default to Publisher Font if the eBook has a font embedded, but show the last used system font for any place where the embedded font(s) is/are not showing.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by jhowell

When I open a book I usually see whatever font I most recently selected as the default font. If I last selected Publisher font and the book does not have one then my most recently selected non-publisher font is used instead for that one book, but it will again use Publisher if I later open a different book that has one.

Yes--IF you have ever selected Publisher Font AND it's already turned on.

But if you haven't, and it's not being used on the current book--it isn't the default. I've NEVER seen it as the opening look on my Voyage, b/c I don't choose it and never did.

That's my experience, BUT...I haven't bought a PPW in a few years now, it could be different now, I guess. (Altho, I doubt it.)

Hitch