Online petition over library ebook embargo

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

Nope. If I don't get the eBook form the library, I won't be buying it.

Even that is still a lost sale Jon, you are clearly interested in the material and want it. Otherwise you wouldn't seek it out from the library.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Even that is still a lost sale Jon, you are clearly interested in the material and want it. Otherwise you wouldn't seek it out from the library.

How is it a lost sale? If I get it from the library, I'll read it. If I don't get it from the library, I won't buy it.

A lost sale is if I could not get it from the library or was not willing to wait I would then go buy it but because I was able ot get it from the library I didn't get it.

There are a lot of eBooks I will read but not if I have to buy it at the price being charged.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

How is it a lost sale? If I get it from the library, I'll read it. If I don't get it from the library, I won't buy it.

A lost sale is if I could not get it from the library or was not willing to wait I would then go buy it but because I was able ot get it from the library I didn't get it.

There are a lot of eBooks I will read but not if I have to buy it at the price being charged.

Ok let me break this down for you

You borrow a book from a library (does not matter how long the wait period is it could be right away or 10 weeks) instead of buying - this is a lost sale. You did not buy the book.

You do not buy the book because of price but there is no library option - this is a lost sale. You did not buy it.

This is how the publisher views it.

A lost sale is any time you do not buy something you're interested in. It doesn't matter why you didn't buy it.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Ok let me break this down for you

You borrow a book from a library (does not matter how long the wait period is it could be right away or 10 weeks) instead of buying - this is a lost sale. You did not buy the book.

You do not buy the book because of price but there is no library option - this is a lost sale. You did not buy it.

This is how the publisher views it.

A lost sale is any time you do not buy something you're interested in. It doesn't matter why you didn't buy it.

A lost sale is when I would have bought it but got it elsewhere. That is a lost sale. It is not a lost sale if I am interested but do not buy it or get it elsewhere. I'm interested in a lot of things I'll never buy and those things are not lost sales.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by issybird

This seems to me a textbook example of cutting off your nose to spite your face. I can't imagine it's in the best interest of their borrowers, or that the borrowers will be happy about this. Wouldn't it make more sense to start the three-month waiting period at the end of the two-month hiatus on buying?

They're actually giving MacMillan what they really want: zero library ebooks.
And they'll still buy print, probably more copies...

[leebase]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

A lost sale is when would have bought it but got it elsewhere. That is a lost sale. It is not a lost sale if I am interested but do not buy it or get it elsewhere. I'm interested in a lot of things I'll never buy and those things are not lost sales.

You are correct sir. A lost sale is if you WOULD have purchased but didn't.

[JSWolf]

Originally Posted by leebase

You are correct sir. A lost sale is if you WOULD have purchased but didn't.

Thank you for this.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

A lost sale is when I would have bought it but got it elsewhere. That is a lost sale. It is not a lost sale if I am interested but do not buy it or get it elsewhere. I'm interested in a lot of things I'll never buy and those things are not lost sales.

Jon I’m not going to hijack this thread going back and forth with you. A business like a publisher sees any time you do not buy a book you’re interested in as a lost sale. This isn’t a hard concept to grasp.

None of your disagreement or personal views on this will change that. And in this case it’s the publishers view which matters because that’s what is driving their decision making progress.

[John F]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Jon I’m not going to hijack this thread going back and forth with you. A business like a publisher sees any time you do not buy a book you’re interested in as a lost sale. This isn’t a hard concept to grasp.

None of your disagreement or personal views on this will change that. And in this case it’s the publishers view which matters because that’s what is driving their decision making progress.

That does seem like a stretch of the definition of a "lost sale". Googling a definition came up with:

Lost sales are those selling opportunities that you have lost because an item was out of stock or because you do not carry a particular brand or line of merchandise or any other reason that caused you to lose the opportunity to sell.

Sounds like Jon is saying that he would never buy it, so there was no opportunity to sell it to Jon, so no lost sale.

Sounds to me like A lost sale would be if they didn't sell it to the library at all.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by John F

That does seem like a stretch of the definition of a "lost sale". Googling a definition came up with:


Sounds like Jon is saying that he would never buy it, so there was no opportunity to sell it to Jon, so no lost sale.

Sounds to me like A lost sale would be if they didn't sell it to the library at all.

Googling define lost sale
"Lost sales, also referred to as lost revenue, income or profit, is a term used in the context of Internet piracy to refer to sales that did not occur because potential customers have chosen not to buy a product but to obtain it from an illegal source for a lower cost or for no cost."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_sales

Which would certainly any library borrow, and it's not a far stretch from this to include not purchasing it period.

[issybird]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Googling define lost sale
"Lost sales, also referred to as lost revenue, income or profit, is a term used in the context of Internet piracy to refer to sales that did not occur because potential customers have chosen not to buy a product but to obtain it from an illegal source for a lower cost or for no cost."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_sales

Which would certainly any library borrow, and it's not a far stretch from this to include not purchasing it period.

[Bolding mine.]

By definition, this doesn't apply; library borrows are not Internet piracy. And if you're implying that Jon is an Internet pirate, he's not.

Time to drop this. A book which a customer would never buy, whether or not he could borrow it from the library, is not a lost sale. The only lost sales in this context are from those who'd buy the book if they couldn't borrow it in a timely manner.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by MGlitch

Googling define lost sale
"Lost sales, also referred to as lost revenue, income or profit, is a term used in the context of Internet piracy to refer to sales that did not occur because potential customers have chosen not to buy a product but to obtain it from an illegal source for a lower cost or for no cost."

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_sales

Which would certainly any library borrow, and it's not a far stretch from this to include not purchasing it period.

Are you lumping piracy and library together now somehow? If that is what publishers think, then so be it. From you, or anyone on MR, I would have thought better.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Are you lumping piracy and library together now somehow? If that is what publishers think, then so be it. From you, or anyone on MR, I would have thought better.

I think it's fair clear what he meant, i.e. a lost sale in the context of an ebook would be any time that a customer wanted a specific ebook and didn't buy it, either because it wasn't available, or because that customer obtained the ebook without buying it. While I may not agree with the definition with respect to libraries (who actually do buy licenses for the ebooks), I think it's clear that he's not trying to say that borrowing from a library is the same as pirating.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by issybird

[Bolding mine.]

By definition, this doesn't apply; library borrows are not Internet piracy. And if you're implying that Jon is an Internet pirate, he's not.

Time to drop this. A book which a customer would never buy, whether or not he could borrow it from the library, is not a lost sale. The only lost sales in this context are from those who'd buy the book if they couldn't borrow it in a timely manner.

Sigh ok since apparently we really want to derail this thread.

Can we agree that a sale is what leads to the profitability of a publisher?

Yes? Good.

From https://bizfluent.com/info-12066657-...t-profits.html

Lost Revenue

Revenue is money generated by a company either through the sale of goods or services. The revenue of a company is found on the income statement. Lost revenue definitely impacts a company; however, one dollar of lost revenue does not equal to one dollar of lost income. Each dollar of revenue has certain expenses that goes along with it, so the return to shareholders after costs that are included is a lot less than one dollar. Lost revenue can occur for many reasons, including breach of contract, running out of inventory, manufacturing plant malfunctioning and the production of flawed products.

Lost Profits

The profits of a company represent the income left over to shareholders or the owners of the company. To calculate profit, you have to take the revenue of a company and subtract all of the expenses, including interesting expense and taxes. This information is found on a company's income statement. Since profit is the last line on the income statement, a one dollar loss in profit impacts shareholders' returns by one dollar. Lost profits occur when a partner breaches a contract that impacts a company's bottom line.

I trust we can all agree an item NOT being bought leads to a company NOT making money from that non-sale.

From https://www.superoffice.com/blog/sales-opportunities/

[quote]
Post summary:

How to analyze your sales process
How to reconnect with lost prospects
Why focus on “winning” sales opportunities

“No thanks, we’re not interested…”

That dreaded “no thanks” reply. Again.

It’s not nice, is it?

You spend weeks or even months building a relationship, investing both time and resources into a potential deal and then the deal falls through.
[quote]

Yes this is specifically addressing business to business programs, however the principles are the same. An entity is trying to sell you a good or service, saying 'no' to that entity is a 'no' to that good or service sale.

From https://english.stackexchange.com/qu...ost-sales-mean

Lost sales are those selling opportunities that you have lost because an item was out of stock or because you do not carry a particular brand or line of merchandise or any other reason that caused you to lose the opportunity to sell.

Now the extreme of this is if you were never interested in the item and never bought it. But this view dodges under the 'opportunity' since the person was never interested. However in this case Jon is interested but is using a free source to obtain the book. He's stated he wouldn't buy it anyway, which is of course his choice, however it is still a lost opportunity to sell and thus a lost sale for the publisher. Jon was interested in the product, but not enough to buy it.

[MGlitch]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I think it's fair clear what he meant, i.e. a lost sale in the context of an ebook would be any time that a customer wanted a specific ebook and didn't buy it, either because it wasn't available, or because that customer obtained the ebook without buying it. While I may not agree with the definition with respect to libraries (who actually do buy licenses for the ebooks), I think it's clear that he's not trying to say that borrowing from a library is the same as pirating.

This.

Libraries are not piracy, however you can still obtain a book from them at a lower cost than buying the book outright.

It is 100% legal. And is still a lost sale for the publisher.