Amazon 'Destroyed the Retail Industry Across the US'

[lumpynose]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Of course, I prefer to buy most of my clothes online, while I suspect that most people prefer to shop for clothes in the store so they can feel the fabric and try it on.

If you're tall then buying online is pretty much the only option.

[Gardenman]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Oh, as a whole, retail stores are doing fine. Certain stores have been damaged by internet sales, but other stores are still going like gang busters. Some things people like to buy online, other things they don't. A lot of retail stores have web sites that allow you to buy online and get significant business that way, so it's not like Amazon has run them out of business. I buy local honey, coffee and flavored olive oils from local shops via the web.

I would say that stores that focus on good customer service and the more social aspects do better than generic stores. The local Apple store is always busy.

I still maintain that if B&N can focus on the social aspects of books like they did when during the 90's and 2000's, they can do quite well. A lot of people like the social aspects of book clubs and simply getting out of the house, browsing and maybe having a cup of coffee. However, it would require a lot more focus on providing friendly, knowledgable staff.

Also bring back the chairs so you can sit and read.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I still maintain that if B&N can focus on the social aspects of books like they did when during the 90's and 2000's, they can do quite well. A lot of people like the social aspects of book clubs and simply getting out of the house, browsing and maybe having a cup of coffee. However, it would require a lot more focus on providing friendly, knowledgable staff.

I suspect that for many of those interested in the social aspects, the local library has taken over.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by darryl

I suspect that for many of those interested in the social aspects, the local library has taken over.

Or social media. You don't even have to be in the same location, time zone, or on the same sleep schedule.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Or social media. You don't even have to be in the same location, time zone, or on the same sleep schedule.

Quite right Duckie. I think between local libraries and social media there is little need for traditional bookshops to fulfil this role. Some of course do manage to promote their businesses this way, but if this particular function entirely leaves the bookstore I suspect few will actually care, and the vast majority will not even notice.

Bookshops resorting to this function as a reason why their businesses are so special and should be preserved are in my view truly clutching at straws.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by darryl

Quite right Duckie. I think between local libraries and social media there is little need for traditional bookshops to fulfil this role. Some of course do manage to promote their businesses this way, but if this particular function entirely leaves the bookstore I suspect few will actually care, and the vast majority will not even notice.

Bookshops resorting to this function as a reason why their businesses are so special and should be preserved are in my view truly clutching at straws.

Hum, not around here libraries don't. Perhaps in some communities.

I think you are kind of missing the point and are falling into the "I do things this way, therefore everyone must want to do it this way" trap. A lot of people prefer face to face meetings. The social media crowd already has Goodreads, Facebook and other such venues, but the people who are more likely to buy in person are the sort of people who do like getting out and meeting people rather than doing everything online. Some people are simply social and enjoy being around other people.

I know a few people who are in book clubs. They meet together every few weeks to have coffee and talk about a specific book. It very much is a social event. I don't think that any actually meet at a bookstore per se, but it's the sort of thing that bookstores that have survived do. That's what many bookstores use to do. Book clubs, author events, that sort of thing. I can remember a time when the local B&N use to have a calendar listing their events and a little area for such events.

[crich70]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Tell me about this.

That concisely sums up the whole problem. Makes a lot of sense as it explains why most of the unemployed people consist of those unwilling or incapable of learning a new trade. Even at places (like mine) that have been willing to train inexperienced workers. Hasn't been working out very well as it is harder than one might think to find anybody (experienced or not) to learn a new job that requires weeks of training compared to minutes.

What kind of job is that DuckieTigger?

[darryl]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Hum, not around here libraries don't. Perhaps in some communities.

I think you are kind of missing the point and are falling into the "I do things this way, therefore everyone must want to do it this way" trap. A lot of people prefer face to face meetings. The social media crowd already has Goodreads, Facebook and other such venues, but the people who are more likely to buy in person are the sort of people who do like getting out and meeting people rather than doing everything online. Some people are simply social and enjoy being around other people.

I know a few people who are in book clubs. They meet together every few weeks to have coffee and talk about a specific book. It very much is a social event. I don't think that any actually meet at a bookstore per se, but it's the sort of thing that bookstores that have survived do. That's what many bookstores use to do. Book clubs, author events, that sort of thing. I can remember a time when the local B&N use to have a calendar listing their events and a little area for such events.

Clearly I do not assume that the people who do frequent such events are like me, since I basically don't attend such events. Nevertheless I am very glad that they continue to have the opportunity to pursue what interests them. Some surviving bookstores do indeed tout this social engagement as integral to their relative success, though I have not come across any hard data to support or explain this, or for that matter to quantify it. Are there only a few areas this approach works, or is there a magic formula for success?

My point is that this social function is not something which is peculiar only to bookstores, nor are bookstores peculiarly suited to do it to the exclusion of all others. Nor do I think it is a worthwhile marketing tactic for a bookstore in all but a few areas. Certainly in many areas a library with sufficient copies of a book available to borrow at no cost would be far more attractive than a bookstore trying to flog as many full priced hardback new releases as they could.

It is interesting that your local libraries are not filling this role. I suspect that if these social bookshops were to meet their demise, the libraries may well step in if there is sufficient demand. They may do so anyway, as the role of the library has, as discussed, changed significantly and continues to change. Libraries becoming social hubs are peculiarly suitable to social activities such as book clubs, author signings and the like.

[tomsem]

I haven’t visited a book store or library for a long time (except in the latter case, to renew my library card so I can borrow ebooks), so I have some difficulty imagining what social utility they hold.

I have participated in book clubs at some of the tech companies I’ve worked for, but it is a mixed bag as my reading interests don’t often intersect with the group’s interests. But it is still of value as I have ended up reading some things I liked and would never have read otherwise. But it was convenient to attend over a lunch hour — not sure that would be the case with book club hosted at a bookstore or library.

Still, I think there’s a lot of potential for doing this to promote trips to bookstores and libraries and remain relevant in the community. Authors can have limited opportunities to meet readers given the travel time and expenses involved, but with some basic teleconferencing they could be interviewed and meet readers that way, and even sign books (mail a label with a personal message and signature that could be printed out and affixed), which would be fun.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by crich70

What kind of job is that DuckieTigger?

We make OEM suspension components for new SUVs and trucks (light and heavy duty consumer grade). My job, in particular, is taking care (setup and running) of the first six machines of the process. Fairly simple once you get over the steep learning curve. That is probably true for most every job, though. A lot of little things to remember, strong troubleshooting skills required. Some basic math and being mechanically inclined helps. In short, everything my job needs is no longer taught in high school. The only way to overcome short comings is to have the motivation to learn quick and being able to remember a lot of things quickly.

I once met a guy who said he done a lot of stupid things during high school. I asked him how he managed to get his degree then with fairly good grades. Answer: He grew up in California. Sad, but we both laughed. Both fully aware that he only had a undeserved participation award.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by darryl

Clearly I do not assume that the people who do frequent such events are like me, since I basically don't attend such events. Nevertheless I am very glad that they continue to have the opportunity to pursue what interests them. Some surviving bookstores do indeed tout this social engagement as integral to their relative success, though I have not come across any hard data to support or explain this, or for that matter to quantify it. Are there only a few areas this approach works, or is there a magic formula for success?

My point is that this social function is not something which is peculiar only to bookstores, nor are bookstores peculiarly suited to do it to the exclusion of all others. Nor do I think it is a worthwhile marketing tactic for a bookstore in all but a few areas. Certainly in many areas a library with sufficient copies of a book available to borrow at no cost would be far more attractive than a bookstore trying to flog as many full priced hardback new releases as they could.

It is interesting that your local libraries are not filling this role. I suspect that if these social bookshops were to meet their demise, the libraries may well step in if there is sufficient demand. They may do so anyway, as the role of the library has, as discussed, changed significantly and continues to change. Libraries becoming social hubs are peculiarly suitable to social activities such as book clubs, author signings and the like.

There is never a major formula that works in all areas.

I suspect in areas where bookstores don't meet the need, book clubs would simply start meeting in coffee shops and the like. Individual libraries rarely carry that many individual copies of a given book. Libraries are downsizing, not expanding in this area. Atlanta was considering selling the main library building and the library budget has been going down. A lot of cities in the US have budget issues. Why that is so is a political question.

My main point is that successful businesses find a lot of ways to bring in customers. They identify and fill needs. If a book club can bring customers into the store, then it's something worth trying. My karate school is constantly doing events to keep customers coming back. It also has multiple revenue streams and is on the look out for new trends. That's how you survive 20+ years in a business where many schools struggle to stay in business. For a bookstore to stay in business, they have to give the customers reasons to get in the car and drive over rather than just order the book online. Those reasons tend to be more social and experience than price.

[DuckieTigger]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Hum, not around here libraries don't. Perhaps in some communities.

I think you are kind of missing the point and are falling into the "I do things this way, therefore everyone must want to do it this way" trap.

Didn't you just fall into that same trap? You are spoiled for choices. Now let's see when choices are more limited, then:

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I suspect in areas where bookstores don't meet the need, book clubs would simply start meeting in coffee shops and the like. Individual libraries rarely carry that many individual copies of a given book.

Won't work in areas that don't have bookstores in the first place. The county I live in doesn't have a single dedicated bookstore. The only open to public book clubs are organized by and in the library. We only have one third of the population classified as living in urban areas, two thirds in rural. The whole US has 80% of the population living in urban areas that take up only 3% of the land. So who is in the majority? Ask random people, they will live in a major city. Travel the US randomly, and you are hard pressed to find a bookstore within close distance. My closest B&N is over 40 miles away. No thank you, too far.

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Won't work in areas that don't have bookstores in the first place. The county I live in doesn't have a single dedicated bookstore. The only open to public book clubs are organized by and in the library. We only have one third of the population classified as living in urban areas, two thirds in rural. The whole US has 80% of the population living in urban areas that take up only 3% of the land. So who is in the majority? Ask random people, they will live in a major city. Travel the US randomly, and you are hard pressed to find a bookstore within close distance. My closest B&N is over 40 miles away. No thank you, too far.

Total US population is north of 330million. 20% of that is 66Million, more than a lot of first world countries. (UK, for one.) And that doesn't count the millions living in small towns and cities without bookstores.

Easily forgotten by many but they still matter.
(Wal-Mart built their company serving them.)

There are far more communities than bookstores:

There are over 35,000 towns in the US...

https://www.reference.com/geography/...b3be08284e6a62

...and less than 22,000 bookstores (concentrated in the bigger cities):

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...res-in-the-us/

As a matter of fact, only 4000 of those communities are bigger than 10,000 inhabitants.
And, let's face it, bookstores need more than 10,000 inhabitants to survive, which is why the stores are concentrated in the really big cities.

[fjtorres]

Turns out Publisher's Weekly has its uses for research.


The data is old, 2013 but it still make a point about bookstore concentration.

https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/...tores-are.html

Bookselling By State

States Population Total Stores Per Capita
1 Montana 1,005,141 64 15,705
2 Wyoming 576,412 35 16,469
3 Vermont 626,011 38 16,474
4 Alabama 4,822,023 286 16,860
5 Tennessee 6,456,243 369 17,497
6 Nebraska 1,845,525 105 17,576
7 Arkansas 2,949,131 165 17,874
8 Colorado 5,187,582 288 18,012
9 Kansas 2,885,905 160 18,037
10 Missouri 6,021,988 330 18,248
11 Alaska 731,449 40 18,286
12 Iowa 3,074,186 168 18,299
13 Minnesota 5,379,139 293 18,359
14 Washington, D.C. 632,323 34 18,598
15 South Carolina 4,723,723 251 18,820
16 Mississippi 2,984,926 157 19,012
17 West Virginia 1,855,413 97 19,128
18 Georgia 9,919,945 508 19,527
19 Indiana 6,537,334 333 19,632
20 North Carolina 9,752,073 486 20,066
21 Oklahoma 3,814,820 189 20,184
22 Kentucky 4,380,415 211 20,760
23 New Mexico 2,085,538 97 21,500
24 Louisiana 4,601,893 213 21,605
25 South Dakota 833,354 38 21,930
26 Virginia 8,185,866 372 22,005
27 Oregon 3,899,353 173 22,540
28 New Hampshire 1,320,718 55 24,013
29 Florida 19,317,568 797 24,238
30 Illinois 12,875,255 523 24,618
31 Ohio 11,544,225 467 24,720
32 Wisconsin 5,726,398 231 24,790
33 Idaho 1,595,728 63 25,329
34 North Dakota 699,628 27 25,912
35 Texas 26,059,203 1,004 25,955
36 Maine 1,329,192 51 26,062
37 Utah 2,855,287 109 26,195
38 Pennsylvania 12,763,536 478 26,702
39 Arizona 6,553,255 238 27,535
40 Maryland 5,884,563 199 29,571
41 Washington 6,897,012 230 29,987
42 Michigan 9,883,360 327 30,224
43 Delaware 917,092 30 30,570
44 Nevada 2,758,931 89 30,999
45 Massachusetts 6,646,144 213 31,203
46 California 38,041,430 1,185 32,102
47 Connecticut 3,590,347 102 35,199
48 Hawaii 1,392,313 36 38,675
49 New York 19,570,261 505 38,753
50 Rhode Island 1,050,292 27 38,900
51 New Jersey 8,864,590 217 40,851

Total 313,904,193 12,703 24,053

Lots more detail at the source, but the point is clear, even with the fall of Borders, physical bookstore access is a function of where you live. If you're in New York you have hundreds of stores you can get to. If you live in Idaho, outside Boise...

And, even in Illinois, the divide is notable. More than half the state total in 2007 was in Chicago.

https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/...illinois.htmla

Illinois ranks fifth in the country in total number of bookstores—and more than half of those serve Chicagoland. Among them are more than 90 independent bookstores, including 43 of ABA members and 28 of CBA members. Twenty-two of Barnes & Noble's 35 Illinois stores are in Chicagoland, three of them inside the city limits. Thirty of Borders's 40 Illinois stores are located in the metro area, though only nine of its 25 Waldenbooks stores. Eleven Borders stores and two Waldenbooks are located in Chicago itself, including what several publishers' reps said they consider to be one of Borders's top stores, the superstore located on a heavily trafficked corner of North Michigan Avenue, the hub of the city's famed Magnificent Mile shopping district.

That was before Borders imploded so the ratio of population to store has only gone up with closures, ebooks, and online. If anything, the big city stores have lots of remaining stores but smaller cities and towns never had that kind of depth.

Lots of people go online/digital because it's their only viable choice.
It's Amazon or tbe spinner rack at the drug store. If that.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by DuckieTigger

Didn't you just fall into that same trap? You are spoiled for choices. Now let's see when choices are more limited, then:

Won't work in areas that don't have bookstores in the first place. The county I live in doesn't have a single dedicated bookstore. The only open to public book clubs are organized by and in the library. We only have one third of the population classified as living in urban areas, two thirds in rural. The whole US has 80% of the population living in urban areas that take up only 3% of the land. So who is in the majority? Ask random people, they will live in a major city. Travel the US randomly, and you are hard pressed to find a bookstore within close distance. My closest B&N is over 40 miles away. No thank you, too far.

No, I didn't fall in the same trap. Look at what I actually said. I was specifically talking about bookstores and how they might attract customers. If you live in an area that doesn't have a bookstore, rather obviously nothing I said applies to your situation. If you live in a rural area with a low population density, then specialty stores are going to have to tough go.

Online shopping is a god send for rural areas. It's the same situation as catalog shopping pre-internet. The same dynamic for broadband internet services and for that matter cell phones. It's a totally different market.