Hmmm iRex or Sony (DRM question) - Page 2

TadW · 09-03-2006, 05:15 PM

... and famous cases make it on the GPL-violations homepage

kusmi · 09-04-2006, 04:19 AM

Perhaps I'm stupid, but how can you see from this site who is on the list and who not? I could not find any list there....

TadW · 09-04-2006, 09:36 AM

Top left column under "News" you see a list of companies who received an GPL violation notice.

kusmi · 09-04-2006, 09:50 AM

Ops, sorry, I guess I misunderstood

you just mentioned that there *is* a list which covers GPL violations, but not that you found iRex on it

TadW · 09-04-2006, 09:58 AM

Oops, sorry if I left this impression - of course iRex is not on the list, since - until now - we have every reason to believe that they are going to comply to GPL, haven't we? ;-)

pdam · 09-04-2006, 01:46 PM

Hi Beirius
An interesting thread .. but getting back to your original question about downloading ebooks with DRM ... will they work?
- Further to the answers above, which cover the pro's and con's and current capabilities of the devices well, and specifically following Natch's comment about the A5 format of the iLiad...what format and type of DRM is used for the ebooks you have downloaded?
For instance - if you have downloaded PDF's with passwords - these should be able to be opened on the iLiad, if the DRM IS Proprietary, currently you probably can't. If they are PDF's, unless your journals were formatted in A5 you probably wont have the rights to add tags to reflow them (if you had the software to do so in the first place) and they are likely to be formatted as A4, so will scale down when viewed on the device to display very small text ...

lordvetinari2 · 09-04-2006, 03:42 PM

Well, I have been thinking about this. At first I totally agreed with you, but then I thought, 'Hey, what's this? Since when do i agree on something?' It's so much interesting not to agree. Heheh

Let me repeat myself, Sony likes to control the food chain, just like Apple.

See what happens with the PSP:

DRM on PSP

and

PSP firmware hacks

Everytime good ole hackers try to open the PSP to homebrew software, Sony closes the hole. Of course, it's just a game of cat and mouse, but they don't like it. Game developers do not want their games copied, so Sony closes the system. If it were for Sony, they would leave it open and sell PSP like candy. Something similar will happen to the Mylo, probably. I don't think Skype will like the competition of a fan-port of other VoIP programs.

There's a difference between the PSP on one hand and Mylo and the Reader on the other, though. They both run on Linux. Now, the Linux kernel and other bits are licensed under GPL and Sony would be required to completely open the system. So, if they open the system, that would probably mean (I'm no programmer, but it fits) that their e-book DRM is cracked open. Publishers won't like it, and they stop supporting Sony. Sony doesn't get licence money and closes the security hole.

I think even big Sony will have to kneel down and give the source to their OS, but not the modules (i.e. software) that depend on it. If they have created something (eBook reader) from scratch, they don't need to give it away. Really, they only need to control the firmware update bit not to let us change what they don't want us to change. I would like to see how far their SDK kit goes.
Yes, I have read your bit on firmware flashing, "b_k", but I think Sony could try to circunnavigate this with some technical / legal loopholes. They have money to burn and at least try to get away with it.

PS: I agree with you on something, NatCh. I support you in the demand of a shrug smilie.

b_k · 09-04-2006, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordvetinari2

...There's a difference between the PSP on one hand and Mylo and the Reader on the other, though. They both run on Linux. Now, the Linux kernel and other bits are licensed under GPL and Sony would be required to completely open the system. So, if they open the system, that would probably mean (I'm no programmer, but it fits) that their e-book DRM is cracked open. Publishers won't like it, and they stop supporting Sony. Sony doesn't get licence money and closes the security hole.

I suppose Sony 's DRM is not based on any GPL software, otherwise you get to the problem rlauzon pointed out already in another thread. (you got the description of the lock and you got the key)

Quote:

I think even big Sony will have to kneel down and give the source to their OS, but not the modules (i.e. software) that depend on it. If they have created something (eBook reader) from scratch, they don't need to give it away. Really, they only need to control the firmware update bit not to let us change what they don't want us to change. I would like to see how far their SDK kit goes.
Yes, I have read your bit on firmware flashing, "b_k", but I think Sony could try to circunnavigate this with some technical / legal loopholes. They have money to burn and at least try to get away with it.

1. History tells us, that even the big ones had to give in in more than one lawsuit.
2. IANAL, the thing about flashing tools makes sense to me. however, lawyers are known to be somewhat far away from reality sometimes. (you know the whole "to be right and get right" thing)

NatCh · 09-04-2006, 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordvetinari2

I agree with you on something, NatCh. I support you in the demand of a shrug smilie.

.

I guess miracles do happen!

Although ... "demand" might be a bit strong, especially since we're talking about a shrug smilie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordvetinari2

Everytime good ole hackers try to open the PSP to homebrew software, Sony closes the hole. Of course, it's just a game of cat and mouse, but they don't like it. Game developers do not want their games copied, so Sony closes the system. If it were for Sony, they would leave it open and sell PSP like candy. Something similar will happen to the Mylo, probably. I don't think Skype will like the competition of a fan-port of other VoIP programs.

I think a more relevant comparison might be how Sony has responded to hacks of the Librie' -- it's more apples to apples.

I haven't followed that as well as I probably should have, but surely someone on the forum has, and might be willing to comment....

Bierius · 09-04-2006, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdam

Hi Beirius
An interesting thread .. but getting back to your original question about downloading ebooks with DRM ... will they work?
- Further to the answers above, which cover the pro's and con's and current capabilities of the devices well, and specifically following Natch's comment about the A5 format of the iLiad...what format and type of DRM is used for the ebooks you have downloaded?
For instance - if you have downloaded PDF's with passwords - these should be able to be opened on the iLiad, if the DRM IS Proprietary, currently you probably can't. If they are PDF's, unless your journals were formatted in A5 you probably wont have the rights to add tags to reflow them (if you had the software to do so in the first place) and they are likely to be formatted as A4, so will scale down when viewed on the device to display very small text ...

Hi, in response to your comment on journals being in A4 size, would printing journal articles to a virtual (pdf) printer in A5 format not work? Bearing in mind I’m a newbie this is how I assumed I’d get the articles to display nicely on the iLiad. Am I assuming too much?

NatCh · 09-04-2006, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bierius

... would printing journal articles to a virtual (pdf) printer in A5 format not work?

That would work quite well -- we just haven't been assuming that you had the option of doing that.

pdam · 09-05-2006, 06:31 AM

Careful with that assumption NatCh! It depends what format and size your article starts in as to what will happen to it when you print to pdf. Viewing a scaled down A4 PDF would be no different from viewing something that you had scaled down to A5, if the whole document was scaled down (e.g. you keep the formatting) - in which case - why bother, either way you'll be reading very small text. If you have your article in Word (or similar) and you change the paper size (see iRex's guidelines on their site) then print to virtual pdf of the same size - you'll have big text, it'll be easy to read ... but the layout will have changed ...
If you're printing from a webpage - just save as a webpage, it reflows anyway and you get the same size text - right? (I think..)
In terms of device - you have these same issues on any device (it a format thing not a device thing) the iLiad currently can read more formats so so have a better chance of converting stuff to something that reads well on it, so for your articles is still probably the best choice (for reading your articles) out of the 2 devices you're considering ...

NatCh · 09-05-2006, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pdam

Careful with that assumption NatCh! It depends what format and size your article starts in as to what will happen to it when you print to pdf. Viewing a scaled down A4 PDF would be no different from viewing something that you had scaled down to A5, if the whole document was scaled down (e.g. you keep the formatting) - in which case - why bother, either way you'll be reading very small text. If you have your article in Word (or similar) and you change the paper size (see iRex's guidelines on their site) then print to virtual pdf of the same size - you'll have big text, it'll be easy to read ... but the layout will have changed ....

All of which is why we weren't making that assumption, pdam.

However, Bierius's last question suggested that he might, indeed, have the option to print the material in question as a PDF, which would mean that he could print the material to whatever size he likes, and sizes that work well with the iLiad have already been pretty well established by the iLiadite members of the forum.

pdam · 09-05-2006, 12:00 PM

You're quite right, NatCh, I'm just trying to avoid assumptions and suggestions for a newbie (like me - so I'm very happy to be corrected!) who may not be familair with previous postings.

NatCh · 09-05-2006, 12:19 PM

No worries, pdam, and I'm sorry if that came across harshly, please believe I didn't mean it to.

MobileRead is an unusually well organized forum (yet another of the many things I like about it) but it still can't help being a jungle of information, especially to newcomers -- I expect everybody gets lost in it sometimes, I know I do.

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09-03-2006, 05:15 PM	#16
TadW Uebermensch Posts: 2,583 Karma: 1094606 Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Italy Device: Kindle	... and famous cases make it on the GPL-violations homepage

09-04-2006, 04:19 AM	#17
kusmi Connoisseur Posts: 73 Karma: 16 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Zurich, Switzerland	Perhaps I'm stupid, but how can you see from this site who is on the list and who not? I could not find any list there....

09-04-2006, 09:36 AM	#18
TadW Uebermensch Posts: 2,583 Karma: 1094606 Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Italy Device: Kindle	Top left column under "News" you see a list of companies who received an GPL violation notice.

09-04-2006, 09:50 AM	#19
kusmi Connoisseur Posts: 73 Karma: 16 Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Zurich, Switzerland	Ops, sorry, I guess I misunderstood you just mentioned that there is a list which covers GPL violations, but not that you found iRex on it

09-04-2006, 09:58 AM	#20
TadW Uebermensch Posts: 2,583 Karma: 1094606 Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Italy Device: Kindle	Oops, sorry if I left this impression - of course iRex is not on the list, since - until now - we have every reason to believe that they are going to comply to GPL, haven't we? ;-)

09-04-2006, 01:46 PM	#21
pdam Groupie Posts: 199 Karma: 100 Join Date: Aug 2006 Device: iLiad, iPaq, Psion5&7, Blackberry	Hi Beirius An interesting thread .. but getting back to your original question about downloading ebooks with DRM ... will they work? - Further to the answers above, which cover the pro's and con's and current capabilities of the devices well, and specifically following Natch's comment about the A5 format of the iLiad...what format and type of DRM is used for the ebooks you have downloaded? For instance - if you have downloaded PDF's with passwords - these should be able to be opened on the iLiad, if the DRM IS Proprietary, currently you probably can't. If they are PDF's, unless your journals were formatted in A5 you probably wont have the rights to add tags to reflow them (if you had the software to do so in the first place) and they are likely to be formatted as A4, so will scale down when viewed on the device to display very small text ...

09-04-2006, 03:42 PM	#22
lordvetinari2 Zealot Posts: 137 Karma: 61 Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Gijón, Spain Device: Kindle 3G+WiFi & Galaxy Note	Well, I have been thinking about this. At first I totally agreed with you, but then I thought, 'Hey, what's this? Since when do i agree on something?' It's so much interesting not to agree. Heheh Let me repeat myself, Sony likes to control the food chain, just like Apple. See what happens with the PSP: DRM on PSP and PSP firmware hacks Everytime good ole hackers try to open the PSP to homebrew software, Sony closes the hole. Of course, it's just a game of cat and mouse, but they don't like it. Game developers do not want their games copied, so Sony closes the system. If it were for Sony, they would leave it open and sell PSP like candy. Something similar will happen to the Mylo, probably. I don't think Skype will like the competition of a fan-port of other VoIP programs. There's a difference between the PSP on one hand and Mylo and the Reader on the other, though. They both run on Linux. Now, the Linux kernel and other bits are licensed under GPL and Sony would be required to completely open the system. So, if they open the system, that would probably mean (I'm no programmer, but it fits) that their e-book DRM is cracked open. Publishers won't like it, and they stop supporting Sony. Sony doesn't get licence money and closes the security hole. I think even big Sony will have to kneel down and give the source to their OS, but not the modules (i.e. software) that depend on it. If they have created something (eBook reader) from scratch, they don't need to give it away. Really, they only need to control the firmware update bit not to let us change what they don't want us to change. I would like to see how far their SDK kit goes. Yes, I have read your bit on firmware flashing, "b_k", but I think Sony could try to circunnavigate this with some technical / legal loopholes. They have money to burn and at least try to get away with it. PS: I agree with you on something, NatCh. I support you in the demand of a shrug smilie.

09-05-2006, 06:31 AM	#27
pdam Groupie Posts: 199 Karma: 100 Join Date: Aug 2006 Device: iLiad, iPaq, Psion5&7, Blackberry	Careful with that assumption NatCh! It depends what format and size your article starts in as to what will happen to it when you print to pdf. Viewing a scaled down A4 PDF would be no different from viewing something that you had scaled down to A5, if the whole document was scaled down (e.g. you keep the formatting) - in which case - why bother, either way you'll be reading very small text. If you have your article in Word (or similar) and you change the paper size (see iRex's guidelines on their site) then print to virtual pdf of the same size - you'll have big text, it'll be easy to read ... but the layout will have changed ... If you're printing from a webpage - just save as a webpage, it reflows anyway and you get the same size text - right? (I think..) In terms of device - you have these same issues on any device (it a format thing not a device thing) the iLiad currently can read more formats so so have a better chance of converting stuff to something that reads well on it, so for your articles is still probably the best choice (for reading your articles) out of the 2 devices you're considering ...

09-05-2006, 12:00 PM	#29
pdam Groupie Posts: 199 Karma: 100 Join Date: Aug 2006 Device: iLiad, iPaq, Psion5&7, Blackberry	You're quite right, NatCh, I'm just trying to avoid assumptions and suggestions for a newbie (like me - so I'm very happy to be corrected!) who may not be familair with previous postings.

09-05-2006, 12:19 PM	#30
NatCh Gizmologist Posts: 11,615 Karma: 929550 Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Republic of Texas Embassy at Jackson, TN Device: Pocketbook Touch HD3	No worries, pdam, and I'm sorry if that came across harshly, please believe I didn't mean it to. MobileRead is an unusually well organized forum (yet another of the many things I like about it) but it still can't help being a jungle of information, especially to newcomers -- I expect everybody gets lost in it sometimes, I know I do.