An interesting read on YA publishing

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Yeah, Macs are much more popular in imagination-land than they are in reality. I see Macs from time to time in the wild and have a friend that has one. But in TV and movies, they are the de facto computer of the world.

That's because all the cool kids have a Mac!

Rather than write a bunch of posts, I'll use this to answer several of your posts.

First, gay couples have been a thing in YA for a good 20 years, though they are usually female and it's not explicit. A good example is Tamora Pierce's Circle series where the adults that the kids live with is rather obviously a lesbian couple. That dates back to the 1990's. Female protagonist as warriors goes back a lot longer than that. Gay males are a bit more unusual, but I can point to a number of well known books (Lackey's Valdemar series and Bradley's Darkover series) that have gay males as main characters.

PC isn't just a code word for LBGT, PC is more of a mind set. It's making sure that you have just the right mix of minority characters, rather than have characters who just happen to be a minority. It's everyone having the same mindset and no one questions that mindset. There is no real subtly. I suspect that one of the reasons Harry Potter was so popular is because as the series progresses, we go from black and white, to a whole lot of gray.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

That's because all the cool kids have a Mac!

Rather than write a bunch of posts, I'll use this to answer several of your posts.

First, gay couples have been a thing in YA for a good 20 years, though they are usually female and it's not explicit. A good example is Tamora Pierce's Circle series where the adults that the kids live with is rather obviously a lesbian couple. That dates back to the 1990's. Female protagonist as warriors goes back a lot longer than that. Gay males are a bit more unusual, but I can point to a number of well known books (Lackey's Valdemar series and Bradley's Darkover series) that have gay males as main characters.

PC isn't just a code word for LBGT, PC is more of a mind set. It's making sure that you have just the right mix of minority characters, rather than have characters who just happen to be a minority. It's everyone having the same mindset and no one questions that mindset. There is no real subtly. I suspect that one of the reasons Harry Potter was so popular is because as the series progresses, we go from black and white, to a whole lot of gray.

Agreed, I think the main problem people have is the nutty fringe that go ape if you don't include <minority de jour> characters, when you hear a lot of that you tend to notice the characters that are there more.

I remember reading James Alan Gardeners Expendable series back when it was released in the late nineties and just thought they were good books, re-reading them last year I couldn't help but notice the PC/diversity slant - Still good books though .

So, to sum up, I don't think it's the inclusion of the characters in books that is the problem, it's the shouty PC brigade that insist that all books should be diverse.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

PC is more of a mind set. It's making sure that you have just the right mix of minority characters, rather than have characters who just happen to be a minority. It's everyone having the same mindset and no one questions that mindset. There is no real subtly.

Based on your above description, would you still say the PC mindset is taking over YA publishing? Are you saying that the majority of YA books published in say, the last five years follow that pattern? Because I seriously doubt it.

I know there's the wrong-headed calling out of Black Witch and a few others by morons on Twitter. But I don't think that counts. We hear about those because they stand out. And even liberals like me think that behavior is a problem. And the fact that the book is selling well and currently has 71% 5 star ratings on Amazon tells me that the campaign failed.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

I remember reading James Alan Gardeners Expendable series back when it was released in the late nineties and just thought they were good books, re-reading them last year I couldn't help but notice the PC/diversity slant - Still good books though .

The fact that you only noticed a problem after you went in looking for it says a lot.

So, to sum up, I don't think it's the inclusion of the characters in books that is the problem, it's the shouty PC brigade that insist that all books should be diverse.

That I can't argue with.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Based on your above description, would you still say the PC mindset is taking over YA publishing? Are you saying that the majority of YA books published in say, the last five years follow that pattern? Because I seriously doubt it.

I know there's the wrong-headed calling out of Black Witch and a few others by morons on Twitter. But I don't think that counts. We hear about those because they stand out. And even liberals like me think that behavior is a problem. And the fact that the book is selling well and currently has 71% 5 star ratings on Amazon tells me that the campaign failed.

Did the campaign fail? Seems it drew attention to the book. It probably sold better because of the campaign.


Sorry, I am very cynical of "bad" publicity. Well known fact: bad attracts more buyers than good.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Did the campaign fail? Seems it drew attention to the book. It probably sold better because of the campaign.


Sorry, I am very cynical of "bad" publicity. Well known fact: bad attracts more buyers than good.

Since the campaign's goal was to hurt Black Witch with negative press and one star reviews and it instead drew attention and increased sales, yes. The campaign failed.

Now if you are implying that it was some sort of false flag operation that was always intended to increase sales, I can't address that. I don't have any tin foil at work to make myself a hat.

[bgalbrecht]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

Agreed, I think the main problem people have is the nutty fringe that go ape if you don't include <minority de jour> characters, when you hear a lot of that you tend to notice the characters that are there more.

I remember reading James Alan Gardeners Expendable series back when it was released in the late nineties and just thought they were good books, re-reading them last year I couldn't help but notice the PC/diversity slant - Still good books though .

So, to sum up, I don't think it's the inclusion of the characters in books that is the problem, it's the shouty PC brigade that insist that all books should be diverse.

While I've got the books, thanks to the ORM freebie sale last year, I haven't read them. Are these "diversity" characters saying/doing things that break the plot, or is it just that "oh that one is black, and that other one is hispanic, and there's someone from southeast asia, and someone is gay"? Or is it that you're looking for subtlely, like Robert Heinlein's protagonist in Starship Troopers is Filipino, but there's only like 3-5 sentences in the entire book that spell it out?

I think it works both ways, though. I am fairly liberal, and when I read some John Ringo recently, he flipped me out of the story when he started complaining about how there aren't any station wagons any more because of unintended consequences of the liberals and their CAFE standards, and in another book, a 13 year-old twice made Michael Moore fat jokes. Really? Do 13 year-olds even know who Michael Moore is?

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

I remember reading James Alan Gardeners Expendable series back when it was released in the late nineties and just thought they were good books, re-reading them last year I couldn't help but notice the PC/diversity slant - Still good books though .

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

The fact that you only noticed a problem after you went in looking for it says a lot..

I completely agree, It wasn't intentional, I can only assume the last x number of years of moaning by the perpetually offended has heightened my spidey-sense

It's strange, because I normally read SF/Fantasy so can take books with character groupings like "Warrior woman, Black Man, Pisshead, & Talking carnivorous donkey" without batting an eyelid (James Bibby's Ronan trilogy for reference), it just seemed weird to me that I noticed it. I normally need to be clubbed over the head to pick up even quite obvious references to things.

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by bgalbrecht

While I've got the books, thanks to the ORM freebie sale last year, I haven't read them. Are these "diversity" characters saying/doing things that break the plot, or is it just that "oh that one is black, and that other one is hispanic, and there's someone from southeast asia, and someone is gay"? Or is it that you're looking for subtlely, like Robert Heinlein's protagonist in Starship Troopers is Filipino, but there's only like 3-5 sentences in the entire book that spell it out?

More the opposite, the entire plot of each book is completely dependent on the characters being "diverse", good books, well worth a read.

Originally Posted by bgalbrecht

I think it works both ways, though. I am fairly liberal, and when I read some John Ringo recently, he flipped me out of the story when he started complaining about how there aren't any station wagons any more because of unintended consequences of the liberals and their CAFE standards, and in another book, a 13 year-old twice made Michael Moore fat jokes. Really? Do 13 year-olds even know who Michael Moore is?

Never heard of CAFE standards, had to google it. Not sure how it got rid of station wagons but SUV's were alright, possibly more reading required.

Have you read the "oh, John Ringo No!" review

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by MikeB1972

I completely agree, It wasn't intentional, I can only assume the last x number of years of moaning by the perpetually offended has heightened my spidey-sense

I will agree. There are folks on many sides, on many sides, looking for things to be offended about. I think it says that we have things pretty good when we are getting worked up about about whether an elf can be black or not.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by bgalbrecht

While I've got the books, thanks to the ORM freebie sale last year, I haven't read them. Are these "diversity" characters saying/doing things that break the plot, or is it just that "oh that one is black, and that other one is hispanic, and there's someone from southeast asia, and someone is gay"? Or is it that you're looking for subtlely, like Robert Heinlein's protagonist in Starship Troopers is Filipino, but there's only like 3-5 sentences in the entire book that spell it out?

I think it works both ways, though. I am fairly liberal, and when I read some John Ringo recently, he flipped me out of the story when he started complaining about how there aren't any station wagons any more because of unintended consequences of the liberals and their CAFE standards, and in another book, a 13 year-old twice made Michael Moore fat jokes. Really? Do 13 year-olds even know who Michael Moore is?

Isn't Michael Moore the Super Size Me guy? Ate all super size meals at McDonalds for a month or two.

[haertig]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Isn't Michael Moore the Super Size Me guy? Ate all super size meals at McDonalds for a month or two.

No, that was some other guy. That was actually a pretty interesting film he made about American's eating habits.

Michael Moore is the rather large, self-important, not-exactly-handsome individual who looks like the end result of a breeding experiment between Harvey Weinsteen and Rosie O'Donnell.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Isn't Michael Moore the Super Size Me guy? Ate all super size meals at McDonalds for a month or two.

Michael Moore did Fahrenheit 9/11 and Roger and Me. Here he is as portrayed in Team America: World Police



The Super Size Me guy is Morgan Spurlock.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by haertig

No, that was some other guy. That was actually a pretty interesting film he made about American's eating habits.

Michael Moore is the rather large, self-important, not-exactly-handsome individual who looks like the end result of a breeding experiment between Harvey Weinsteen and Rosie O'Donnell.

Oh that guy. You sure it was an experiment?

[MikeB1972]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Oh that guy. You sure it was an experiment?

It's alive, aliiiive!!