How to get KF8 to open at the cover?

[FizzyWater]

Originally Posted by AlanHK

(On the hardware Kindle at least) you don't see the cover at all when you have the library in list format, as I do. And if you have it in grid view, you only see a thumbnail.

Since Kindle brings you back to the last page you were at, if it did open at the cover that would only be once. It's not like you have to click past it every time.

Though IMHO most covers designed for colour look pretty crummy in greyscale at whatever size; still I want to see it and find it annoying when I open new book I have to click back and back until I find the cover.

I have to add a "me, too" here. I never found cover view all that useful, so I've always used library view. So I enjoy that glance at the cover before I start reading.

I like what DaleD was talking about - a flash of the screen while the book's loading and counting pages. I seem to remember that at least one or two of my readers also gave you the option to use the cover as the "sleep screen", so you always knew what book you were picking up.

I know I'm in the smallest minority possible when I say I miss the days when the title displayed in a fixed title area at the top or bottom of the page. I remember how much I liked that reminder with my old eBookwise.

[AlanHK]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Well, I meant prologue, not other frontmatter.

I don't know what kind of prologue would be appropriate before the TOC myself. Unless this is some attempt to to an ebook version of the cold open.

Originally Posted by Hitch

It's not documented, like in the Publishing Guidelines, but it's a very real thing.

How Kafkaesque. Unwritten yet firmly applied rules you have to deduce.

Originally Posted by Hitch

That prohibition, against putting the TOC at the back of the book, however, has been in place for years.

That's a relief. I never did it myself, as I do printed books from doc to press and then do ebooks after, mirroring the book layout as much as sensible.

I do recall seeing advocacy for TOC at back in some blogs a while ago.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by AlanHK

I don't know what kind of prologue would be appropriate before the TOC myself. Unless this is some attempt to to an ebook version of the cold open.

It's very common to have a foreword before the TOC. That's the normal place for it in a printed book, if the book has one.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by AlanHK

I don't know what kind of prologue would be appropriate before the TOC myself. Unless this is some attempt to to an ebook version of the cold open.

??? Lots of them do. Particularly for non-fic.

How Kafkaesque. Unwritten yet firmly applied rules you have to deduce.

Well, they've actually sort of spoken of it, now:

fROM THE KPG, Section 5.3, Guide items: "Publishers do not need to define a start reading location because Amazon does this during the upload process."

Granted, it's unnamed, but...at least they sorta, kinda, maybe, mention it. :-)

(About TOCs at the back of the book)...

That's a relief. I never did it myself, as I do printed books from doc to press and then do ebooks after, mirroring the book layout as much as sensible.

I do recall seeing advocacy for TOC at back in some blogs a while ago.

Well, hell...in writers'/authors' forums, all over the Net, you can find advocacy for ANYTHING. I fully expect that one of these days, some yahoo will post something like "take one eBook formatter, sacrifice him on the 15th day after the moon is full, while chanting 'Bestseller' in a nice, melodious screaming voice, and you'll be in the NYT's Bestseller list within 7 days," and those of us in the biz will have to run for our lives.

First, some ppl didn't want to use up their LITB, with it; then some folks just didn't LIKE them, whine-whine-whine, and then, some of the get-rich-quick'ers realized that with the KENP, if they put the TOC at the back of the book, people would click there...and they'd get credit for the ENTIRE book being read and completed. For the "pages read" calculation, for $$$, right?

Amazon would pay out (which they did, mind you), even for worthless books. One guy put up NINETEEN THOUSAND books, all scraped from Google translate, and he made a small fortune, because people would download the books, click to go to the TOC--which was after 500-some-odd pages full of crap, literal, incoherent crap--and he was making a small fortune doing it. Took Amazon quite a while to find and remove all of those books. Some folks will do ANYTHING to scam a buck.

Hitch

[graycyn]

Originally Posted by Notjohn

My attitude is identical to Jon's, and I have been using the KDP/DTP since November 2007, the month it was opened to us. The only e-readers I own are a K3 Keyboard, a Fire 7, and a Paperwhite. (Oops, no, I do own a Nook, but it has been years since I used it.) I sell 80 percent of my ebooks through the Kindle platform, so I design them with the Kindle in mind. The only difference between what I upload to the KDP and to Draft2Digital and Google Play is that I take the cover out of the epub that goes to the KDP.

I want my books to open at the cover, and three-quarters of them do. I accomplish that by not specifying ANY SRL ("text" in Sigil-speak).

I like to chat up people on airplanes whom I see reading on a Kindle. At least half of them not only don't know the author of the book they're reading, but they don't even know its TITLE.

I want them to see my cover, and the title page, and the table of contents, at least once before they get to the goodies.

I'm with this as well. I do own a Kindle, which is a secondary reader, but when I read on it, it's an annoyance that the books open elsewhere than the cover.

It's not the cover that is a problem so much as there is other content that gets skipped over as well.

When books open at chapter 1, you've missed the title page, dedication, and sometimes other stuff!

Worse, *until* I page back, I don't *know* what I might have missed that I would prefer to read prior to starting a book.

I've never understood why Amazon has taken this tack.



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[JSWolf]

My guess is because they don't want people getting a good look at some of the really awful covers you can get with some self-published books. My guess is that this could stop the reading of these books and if they are KU books, the author won't get paid.

[graycyn]

Originally Posted by JSWolf

My guess is because they don't want people getting a good look at some of the really awful covers you can get with some self-published books. My guess is that this could stop the reading of these books and if they are KU books, the author won't get paid.

That could be. But you also miss things like well done illustrated title pages, frontispieces, maps, timelines and such. And there are nice covers out there too.

I suppose publishers can do workarounds, but how many actually do this?

The trouble is that if people go to straight to the 1st full page of text, they won't see any useful front matter material, they won't even know it exists, because they'll also have jumped over the TOC!

Which begs a different question, WHY, if Amazon is going to skip the reader over all the front matter anyway, does Amazon insist on having the TOC in the front of the book?


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[Notjohn]

you also miss things like well done illustrated title pages, frontispieces, maps, timelines and such.

Not to mention occasional essential information. I read the ebook of Isaac's Storm and was halfway through chapter one before puzzlement stopped me. Who are these people I'm reading about? Turned out that the SRL had skipped a prologue that set the scene and introduced the most important characters.

Often I ask people what they're reading on that Kindle. Not only don't many of them know the name of the author, because they haven't seen the title page, but often enough they don't know the name of the BOOK, even though it's there at the top of every "page."

I like the notion that Amazon's doing it to avoid showing those awful covers, but I doubt that's the case. It's just another mindless algorithm. More and more, crap formatting that once would have ensured a book never sold a copy can now advance to an Amazon best-seller list. As authors have dumbed down, readers are following them. There's so much dreck on the Amazon store that dreck is becoming the norm (rather like our politics).

(And I'm not talking about the content but the presentation of it. It's not just who/whom, farther/further, or career/careen, but their/there! It's books formatted ragged right, double spaced, in effing COURIER BOLDFACE because the author rightly concluded that Courier was a bit on the light side for print. Just do a search on the Amazon store for Independently published. That's the publisher of record for KDP Print books.)

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by graycyn

That could be. But you also miss things like well done illustrated title pages, frontispieces, maps, timelines and such. And there are nice covers out there too.

That's as may be. Unfortunately, you're assuming that Amazon created the behavior, but it's the other way around. Amazon gets use statistics from their readers--literally, every "page" in every book. Data that authors would KILL to have (how many minutes did the average reader spend reading that carefully-crafted fight scene chapter? Did they like the Epilogue, etc.) Amazon simply gave the readers what they wanted, based on their reading behavior. Everyone seems to assume that DTBook people just opened the cover, and started at the title page, but apparently, humans (typically and in the vast majority) don't do that. They open the book, thumb it and start at Chapter 1.

I suppose publishers can do workarounds, but how many actually do this?

I guess those who think that readers are going to/should read their front-matter.

The trouble is that if people go to straight to the 1st full page of text, they won't see any useful front matter material, they won't even know it exists, because they'll also have jumped over the TOC!

Well, then, you're going to need to put that crucial-to-the-story front matter, like, say, a map, or a prologue, etc., after the TOC. Even if Amazon hadn't set the SRL there, given the human behavior, you probably ought to do that anyway, so that the aforementioned "thumbing" doesn't miss the material.

Our clients don't like it, either, but, nonetheless, I tell them that the average reader really isn't interested in their dedication, acknowledgements, etc. They just want the story or the content (in non-fiction). Sorry.

Which begs a different question, WHY, if Amazon is going to skip the reader over all the front matter anyway, does Amazon insist on having the TOC in the front of the book?

I suspect you don't really mean "begs the...question," but I get your gist. Firstly, for one thing--and people seem to ignore this, by and large--but because it's a fundamental and crucial part of the page-counting and calculation algorithms, that's why. If the TOC is someplace else, it bollixes up those calcs. Secondly, because, unlike a print book, you can't stick a piece of paper in the device, nor leave it opened and face-down on the coffee table (book destroying heathens!), etc. Some people don't really use the bookmarking system, and nav by TOC. Not many, anymore, but they still exist. Given that Amazon still supports the very first Kindle built, it's hardly surprising that they cater to all types of reader behavior.

Let's not forget: Amazon's customer isn't the publisher. It's the reader. So, alas, poor publishers, they are stuck with the behavior of the reading public.

I mean, to me, it's interesting. For 100 years, publishers assumed that readers read everything from the cover back. Now we know that's not true, not even remotely.

[graycyn]

Well, this is one reader who was not given what she wanted by Amazon, LOL! Guess I don't fall in the average category. And it's apparently not just the beginning of books that Amazon wants you to skip over!

I was happily reading a book tonight by Mary Roach, 'Packing for Mars' that hubby had lent me from his Kindle library. I reached the end, started reading the acknowledgements and BOOM, up popped the "before you go, rate this book" screen!

I mean seriously, can't I finish the book in peace? After the acknowledgements came a timeline. After that, a number of footnotes, and these were not to be missed, being rather funny! I'd seen some while reading, but missed others because the little asterisk link was TINY. And then there was a bibliography of source material where I highlighted two books I may go looking for. I always check out bibliographies, they are a great way to find further interesting reading!

You'd *think* Amazon would, at least, be in favor of that last behavior since it could potentially sell more books ... but apparently not, considering they did their best to have me close the book prematurely.

Then I got the before you go nag screen AGAIN, upon actually finishing the book, yeesh!

Sort of hoping maybe the first appearance of that screen was a glitch, but given they don't want to facilitate reading of front matter, I suppose elimination of reading the back matter makes sense in Amazon world, sigh....

Happy to go back to my Kobo tonight, Rocket Girl came in from the library. And I got to start at the cover, which has a picture of Mary Sherman Morgan. A nice touch with a biography, getting to see the person you are reading about!












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[graycyn]

Originally Posted by Notjohn

I want my books to open at the cover, and three-quarters of them do. I accomplish that by not specifying ANY SRL ("text" in Sigil-speak).

I have been accustomed to putting the semantics in in Sigil, but I will try eliminating the *text* bit, see what happens, so thanks for that tip!

I'm not a publisher, but then again, I believe a few of my father's childhood books may start becoming public domain in a few years, so who knows? I'm planning to digitize them. Kind of a family project, actually.

Would be a shame having searched for the very amusing and rare dust jackets, scanned and cleaned them up only for people not to see the artwork.





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[Notjohn]

BOOM, up popped the "before you go, rate this book" screen!

I mean seriously, can't I finish the book in peace?

Yes, I too find that maddening. Generally I'm not allowed to read the endnotes. I LIKE to read endnotes, so I generally insist, and Amazon generally allows me to proceed.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by graycyn

I have been accustomed to putting the semantics in in Sigil, but I will try eliminating the *text* bit, see what happens, so thanks for that tip!

I'm not a publisher, but then again, I believe a few of my father's childhood books may start becoming public domain in a few years, so who knows? I'm planning to digitize them. Kind of a family project, actually.

Would be a shame having searched for the very amusing and rare dust jackets, scanned and cleaned them up only for people not to see the artwork.

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You know, they DO see the artwork--they see it on the website, where quite frankly, they can see more of it than they can on a real device. Also, if anyone is interested, they can use the "go to" menu, ie.,"Go to cover." OR, they can page back.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just saying, it's not as though the covers are excised.

Also, with regard to the BYG: that is ALSO in response to overwhelming author/publisher demand. They asked and asked and cobbled together links and yadda, to get people to leave reviews for their books. Hence, the BYG (Before you Go) page.

I suspect that it's programmed by Amazon to come after the last page of the body of the book--again, remember, folks, they don't just decide to do this stuff. They analyze reader behavior. Obviously, back-matter gets just as little love as does front! :-) Otherwise, if everyone read to the last (really last) page, that's where they would have put it.

Hitch

[graycyn]

Originally Posted by Hitch

You know, they DO see the artwork--they see it on the website, where quite frankly, they can see more of it than they can on a real device. Also, if anyone is interested, they can use the "go to" menu, ie.,"Go to cover." OR, they can page back.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm just saying, it's not as though the covers are excised.

Also, with regard to the BYG: that is ALSO in response to overwhelming author/publisher demand. They asked and asked and cobbled together links and yadda, to get people to leave reviews for their books. Hence, the BYG (Before you Go) page.

I suspect that it's programmed by Amazon to come after the last page of the body of the book--again, remember, folks, they don't just decide to do this stuff. They analyze reader behavior. Obviously, back-matter gets just as little love as does front! :-) Otherwise, if everyone read to the last (really last) page, that's where they would have put it.

Hitch

Amazon might have the book cover, but they DON'T generally show frontispiece artwork on their website. Or maps. Or title page illustrations. Or TOC illustrations. So, no, people won't necessarily have seen any front matter artwork on the web site. Only the cover.

What tells people a map and/or frontispiece or other important information or artwork exists in the front matter if they haven't seen a TOC? How do they know to BE interested in taking the action to page back?


It's not like any publisher wants:

Chapter 1

STOP! Page back to see the map and frontispiece image that Amazon just zoomed you past! Oh, and by the way, keep reading after the "before you go" screen that pops up after the last chapter, because more cool stuff and artwork awaits!

Begin chapter text here....


Do publishers just have to hope the reader enjoys the text so much that they will visit the TOC?

In print form, at least a reader thumbs through the front matter on the way to the text, so if something catches their eye, they can stop and view or read. But if they are simply presented with Chapter 1 or whatever the first full page of text is, I can't see many that would be paging back if there is no visible reason to do so.

I get that for the vast majority of current, text only fiction books, Amazon's decision on starting books probably works pretty well. But I think it really falls down when it comes to illustrated books.






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[graycyn]

By the way, I'm not trying to argue either, just trying to figure out what might be the best way to present the stuff that Amazon prefers to skip people over.

The vintage books I'd love to publish when/if they become public domain have all kinds of stuff that would be skipped over. Maps, frontispiece images, a fan/author letter section, an illustrated bibliography page.

I'm already figuring maybe a single frontispiece image will have to go after the text it illustrates. But so much is left that falls outside the main text.

Oh well, I guess if people miss the cool stuff, they miss it.






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