Can free e-books be pirated?

[ApK]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Nah, I see shades of gray myself.

If a book (or what have you) is legally available for sale, you should purchase it. But I have a fair number of movie novelizations and old, old sci-fi anthologies that were never (and likely will never) be officially released as e-books. And I don't feel bad about it at all.

So if the copyright holder, for whatever reason, has withdrawn his work from publication, then you no longer feel his rights need to be respected?

When Bruce Springsteen refuses to license a song at any price to a political party he disagrees with, that party should feel free to use the song anyway, and Bruce shouldn't sue if they do?

What's the rationale?

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by ApK

So if the copyright holder, for whatever reason, has withdrawn his work from publication, then you no longer feel his rights need to be respected?

When Bruce Springsteen refuses to license a song at any price to a political party he disagrees with, that party should feel free to use the song anyway, and Bruce shouldn't sue if they do?

What's the rationale?

I can only speak for myself. My rationale for something like that is:

The books I'm talking are long out of print books that can be found at used bookstores for a quarter. These are licensed books that have fallen out of print and will never be brought back. The e-books only exist because my friend likes to create them as a hobby. It is so penny-ante, I just don't see the harm.

Really, is anyone likely to take the time/effort to license an e-version of Alan Dean Foster's novelization of Pale Rider? And does anyone out there particularly care about a bootleg scan of the Dressed to Kill novelization?

I suppose in the end, whatever airy words I use, the honest truth is "I wanna read it" and I know that the rights-holders are unlikely to ever bother bringing the book back.

There's also the fun of seeing how good a job my friend does on a fan made scan of a book. I have sent him several of my old novelizations. It's neat to see such a nicely made e-book come back (nicer in many cases than e-books I've paid for).

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

I can only speak for myself. My rationale for something like that is:

The books I'm talking are long out of print books that can be found at used bookstores for a quarter. The e-books only exist because my friend likes to create them as a hobby. It is so penny-ante, I just don't see the harm.

Really, is anyone likely to take the time/effort to license an e-version of Alan Dean Foster's novelization of Pale Rider? And does anyone out there particularly care about a bootleg scan of the Dressed to Kill novelization?

I suppose in the end, whatever airy words I use, the honest truth is "I wanna read it" and I know that the rights-holders are unlikely to ever bother bringing the book back.

There's also the fun of seeing how good a job my friend does on a fan made scan of a book. I have sent him several of my old novelizations. It's neat to see such a nicely made e-book come back (nicer in many cases than e-books I've paid for).

I found Dan Brown's Inferno in hardback for 49 cents 2 weeks after it came out at a used store. Last I looked it would have still been in print so your point was??

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

I found Dan Brown's Inferno in hardback for 49 cents 2 weeks after it came out at a used store. Last I looked it would have still been in print so your point was??

My point was that is not the type of book I am talking about.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

I found Dan Brown's Inferno in hardback for 49 cents 2 weeks after it came out at a used store. Last I looked it would have still been in print so your point was??

The point is that he is talking about books that are out of print, and will likely never go back into print.

I also want to point out that scanning a copy of Dan Brown's Inferno for your own use is, as far as I know, legal. Especially if the paper copy is destroyed when you scan it.

Shari

[ApK]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

And does anyone out there particularly care about [...]

I guess my point is any one who cares about respecting the rule of law, and who believes that rule of law is the proper way to run a society, rather than merely relying on who can get away with what, or who has the bigger stick to protect their interests with, should care.

And I'm not saying that I expect everyone to always behave in a way that observes any law no matter how trivial, burdensome or harmless, and, from the point of view of the copyright owner in these scenarios, it would be naively unreasonable to expect it.
It's just that I think it matters, as point of character or good citizenship, to a least consider the wrongness of it, and feel a little regret, rather than operating from a point of view that "there is nothing wrong with it."

That way, one gets in the habit of wanting to change and improve laws to make things better. To make them 'right.' Not in the habit of of deciding that it's 'right' to simply do what they want regardless of the law.

Just by analogy to make the point: Killing a person is bad. It's ALWAYS bad. But sometimes circumstances demand that someone be killed to prevent something EVEN WORSE. I ALWAYS want us to understand--and feel--that the killing was bad, even if it was absolutely necessarily and right. That way one is always coming from a position of wanting to reduce the need for the bad thing and to prevent it in the future, rather than looking for arguments to make the bad thing seem good.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by ApK

I guess my point is any one who cares about respecting the rule of law, and who believes that rule of law is the proper way to run a society, rather than merely relying on who can get away with what, or who has the bigger stick to protect their interests with, should care.

And I'm not saying that I expect everyone to always behave in a way that observes any law no matter how trivial, burdensome or harmless, and, from the point of view of the copyright owner in these scenarios, it would be naively unreasonable to expect it.
It's just that I think it matters, as point of character or good citizenship, to a least consider the wrongness of it, and feel a little regret, rather than operating from a point of view that "there is nothing wrong with it."

That way, one gets in the habit of wanting to change and improve laws to make things better. To make them 'right.' Not in the habit of of deciding that it's 'right' to simply do what they want regardless of the law.

Just by analogy to make the point: Killing a person is bad. It's ALWAYS bad. But sometimes circumstances demand that someone be killed to prevent something EVEN WORSE. I ALWAYS want us to understand--and feel--that the killing was bad, even if it was absolutely necessarily and right. That way one is always coming from a position of wanting to reduce the need for the bad thing and to prevent it in the future, rather than looking for arguments to make the bad thing seem good.

My initial answer was that unlike Sammy Hagar, I expect that you can drive 55.

But really, I concede your point and have just downloaded the Piranha novelization (written by John Sayles!).

Novelizations are typically seen as the bottom of the literary barrel. Except for a few rare instances (King Kong, Star Wars, Alien) once the movie disappears from theaters the book goes permanently out of print.

As a kid, I loved a cartoon series called Robotech. The series was popular enough that it spawned a series of novelizations. When I first got into e-books, I found fan made scans of the books and downloaded them.

Later, Del Rey actually released commercial e-book versions and I dutifully purchased them.

I'm not out to get something for nothing. If a commercial edition exists, I'll buy it. But for the type of books I'm talking about, if a fan scan is all that exists, I see no harm in grabbing it.

I'm not trying to make the argument that there is no wrongness or piracy to these things. As I mentioned earlier, justifications like 'copying isn't theft' are whitewashes that bother me. I understand it is wrong. But then I also understand that going over the speed limit is wrong.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by shalym

The point is that he is talking about books that are out of print, and will likely never go back into print.

I also want to point out that scanning a copy of Dan Brown's Inferno for your own use is, as far as I know, legal. Especially if the paper copy is destroyed when you scan it.

Shari

It depends on where you live. It's a violation of the letter of copyright law. The question is, is it allowed under fair use in the US. That's something that I don't think has been adjudicated.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

My initial answer was that unlike Sammy Hagar, I expect that you can drive 55.

But really, I concede your point and have just downloaded the Piranha novelization (written by John Sayles!).

Novelizations are typically seen as the bottom of the literary barrel. Except for a few rare instances (King Kong, Star Wars, Alien) once the movie disappears from theaters the book goes permanently out of print.

As a kid, I loved a cartoon series called Robotech. The series was popular enough that it spawned a series of novelizations. When I first got into e-books, I found fan made scans of the books and downloaded them.

Later, Del Rey actually released commercial e-book versions and I dutifully purchased them.

I'm not out to get something for nothing. If a commercial edition exists, I'll buy it. But for the type of books I'm talking about, if a fan scan is all that exists, I see no harm in grabbing it.

I'm not trying to make the argument that there is no wrongness or piracy to these things. As I mentioned earlier, justifications like 'copying isn't theft' are whitewashes that bother me. I understand it is wrong. But then I also understand that going over the speed limit is wrong.

Interestingly, the author of the robotech books was a pen name for a pair of writers, including Brian Dailey, one of my favorite slightly obscure authors.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Interestingly, the author of the robotech books was a pen name for a pair of writers, including Brian Dailey, one of my favorite slightly obscure authors.

Yep. 'Jack McKinney' was James Luceno and Brian Daley. James Luceno did a Shadow novelization and Brian Daley did Tron. I tried one of Daley's Han Solo novels, but I just don't care much for Star Wars, even the fringe Star Wars that made up Daley's Han Solo trilogy.

[Apache]

Originally Posted by ZodWallop

Yep. 'Jack McKinney' was James Luceno and Brian Daley. James Luceno did a Shadow novelization and Brian Daley did Tron. I tried one of Daley's Han Solo novels, but I just don't care much for Star Wars, even the fringe Star Wars that made up Daley's Han Solo trilogy.

I liked his two book fantasy series Coramonde and his three book science fiction series Hobart Floyt and Alacrity Fitzhugh along with the stand alone A Tapestry of Magics. Brian Daley died in 1996.
Apache

[shalym]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

It depends on where you live. It's a violation of the letter of copyright law. The question is, is it allowed under fair use in the US. That's something that I don't think has been adjudicated.

Hmmm...I thought that format shifting had been ruled to be legal in the US as long as it's for personal use?

Shari

[ApK]

Originally Posted by shalym

Hmmm...I thought that format shifting had been ruled to be legal in the US as long as it's for personal use?

Shari

Not quite as cut and dried as that, but there have been court decisions that supported the idea and some that have rejected it, at least under the specific circumstances that the decisions spoke to.
But it sure seems like fair use as far as I'm concerned.

[DiapDealer]

Originally Posted by shalym

Hmmm...I thought that format shifting had been ruled to be legal in the US as long as it's for personal use?

Shari

I believe it was only in conjuction with disabilities being overcome that format shifting was deemed legal. There was no flat "you may break DRM to format shift for personal use" edict. Not in the U.S. anyway.

Editor hat on:

I'd like to remind everyone that while the discussion of the legalities of esoteric or hypothetical situations pertaining to this issue is fine, we still have rules against the advocacy of piracy at MR. You run the risk of violating forum rules by speaking openly about--and advocating--your own NON-hypothetical violations of copyright law (even if you admit it's "wrong").

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by Apache

I liked his two book fantasy series Coramonde and his three book science fiction series Hobart Floyt and Alacrity Fitzhugh along with the stand alone A Tapestry of Magics. Brian Daley died in 1996.
Apache

Yep, all of those available as ebooks. I had a major celebration when they came out.