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View Poll Results: Can free e-books be pirated?
Yes. If not available (or on sale), the Way Back Machine to get it (for free) is piracy. 27 45.76%
No. The Way Back Machine archives official sites, so you're getting it from the (old) official site. 19 32.20%
No opinion / Don't care. 13 22.03%
Voters: 59. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-28-2017, 02:33 PM   #1
Katsunami
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Can free e-books be pirated?

While browsing my library, my eye fell on a series of free e-books. (Don't worry, I've picked it up and put it back already.) Because of how I acquired one of them, it set me to thinking about possible piracy of free e-books.

These books are given away for something like a week, or a month; after the giveaway, the books either become paid (like €2-3), or go 'out of print'.

I missed one of the books that go out of print, so my series is not complete and there is no current, official way of completing it, either free, or paid. However, I did get the book the Way Back Machine, that archived the page, and all the links, including the book.

Now I'd like to know: Can you actually pirate free e-books? For example:

- Yes. If they're not officially available (or they're being sold), using the Way Back Machine to get it (for free) is piracy.
- No. Using the Way Back Machine, you get the book directly from the official site, even if it's an old, archived version.
- No opinion/don't care.

What's your opinion on this matter?

Personally, I'm of the opinion that if the Way Back Machine manages to grab the official page and the book, getting it from there isn't piracy, not even if the book is unavailable or on sale. You're still getting it from the official site, even if it's an old version.

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Old 01-28-2017, 02:49 PM   #2
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I wouldn't call it piracy. After all, it was given away. In the old days, books could be shared. I always exchanged books with a friend who had the same taste. Trying that today can be fraught with problems. Amazon addresses it somewhat with friends and family.

Other things have dropped by the wayside. Remember remaindered books? Books were sold at a low price at the end of a cycle and went out of print. Today, out of print is an anachronism. Even books that are out of copyright are given a new version and then sold at near list.

I think the question, based on publisher's greed, isn't if it was pirated but why isn't there more of it. Go look at Robert Heinlein books and their price as out of original copyright items. I have early published ones that I could scan and then share with a friend. Is that piracy?

From a legal view, how could what you did be proven? It was free at one time and who can say when you obtained it.
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Old 01-28-2017, 02:58 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by JKenP View Post
I have early published ones that I could scan and then share with a friend. Is that piracy?.
Yes. Lend him the physical copy instead.
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Old 01-28-2017, 03:15 PM   #4
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Quick answer just because you get a digital book on sale for free, does not mean you are able to do whatever you want with it.
So yes, if you buy Wool or The Arrangement free, if you distribute it to others you are committing piracy.
Now if you get 20,000 Leagues under the sea free, you can do whatever you want with it because it is public domain.

Price is not a factor. Copyright date is the factor.
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Old 01-28-2017, 03:19 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JKenP View Post
Go look at Robert Heinlein books and their price as out of original copyright items. I have early published ones that I could scan and then share with a friend. Is that piracy?

From a legal view, how could what you did be proven? It was free at one time and who can say when you obtained it.
I like to use the 'Borland" (software) copyright license as an example [before there were e-books] on sharing/multiple installs
"Like a book, it can only be used in a single place at any time"
You are making a COPY when you scan / format convert. In reality, you have divided (split up) your license between the formats.
IMHO If you 'lend', you need to lend ALL together to have a whole license to read

Pirating is when you go against the License issued to you.
BAEN free books are still under copyright. The license is explicit in what you are allowed to do and your 'duties' if you do make-give copies. #1 is No Charge
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Old 01-28-2017, 03:27 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinisajoy View Post
Quick answer just because you get a digital book on sale for free, does not mean you are able to do whatever you want with it.
So yes, if you buy Wool or The Arrangement free, if you distribute it to others you are committing piracy.
Now if you get 20,000 Leagues under the sea free, you can do whatever you want with it because it is public domain.

Price is not a factor. Copyright date is the factor.
AFAIK The edition (type setting?, mechanical? code?) is also a copyright

so, while 20K may be out of copyright, wouldn't the transcription be a new copyright for that EDITION only
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Old 01-28-2017, 03:29 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cinisajoy View Post
Quick answer just because you get a digital book on sale for free, does not mean you are able to do whatever you want with it.
So yes, if you buy Wool or The Arrangement free, if you distribute it to others you are committing piracy.
Now if you get 20,000 Leagues under the sea free, you can do whatever you want with it because it is public domain.

Price is not a factor. Copyright date is the factor.
Distributing the book is not one of the points here.

Even when you BUY 20.000 Leagues under the Sea, or get it for free from a site that made the ebook such as Feedbooks.com, you can't distribute it. Even though the text is out of copyright, you're still not allowed to actually distribute the book made by someone else as far as I know.

I'm talking about if *getting* the book for yourself, trough an old, archived copy of the giveaway page, is piracy or not, after the giveaway has ended and the book becomes unavailable or not free.
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Old 01-28-2017, 03:41 PM   #8
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If the free book is not being offered under Creative Commons or other such permission to copy freely given then it can indeed be pirated. For example I don't have the right to give away copies of the University of Chicago Press book of the month just because I received them for free. Doing so would be piracy.

On the other hand it is commonly accepted that converting a webpage to ebook form for personal use is acceptable and this would include the occasional book. I personally would not feel free to give away copies of such books but would rather provide a website address. In the absence of a delibrate attempt by the copyright holder to remove the book from the web, I would feel free to copy the webpages from wayback.

However, if the rights holder giving the books away has made an deliberate attempt to remove the book from the web it seems disingenuous to claim that downloading the book though wayback is entirely ethical.
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Old 01-28-2017, 03:50 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by ekbell View Post
However, if the rights holder giving the books away has made an deliberate attempt to remove the book from the web it seems disingenuous to claim that downloading the book though wayback is entirely ethical.
In that case, if me downloading the book through the Way Back Machine can be considered piracy (or at least, unethical), the logical followup is that the Way Back Machine itself is committing a copyright violation by keeping the old page and files on record and publicly available.
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Old 01-28-2017, 03:54 PM   #10
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Seems clearly piracy to me. Using an internet archive for this purpose isn't any different from using a torrent site to obtain a "free" copy.

Just because something was on sale for free at one time doesn't mean that you are always entitled to a free copy. A lot of times there will be free giveaways for a limited time to build buzz around a book in the hope of being able to actually sell some copies later. If you didn't get it when it was offered for free then you are not entitled to have it for free later.

The attitude expressed in the OP seems awfully self serving.

Quote:
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... the logical followup is that the Way Back Machine itself is committing a copyright violation by keeping the old page and files on record and publicly available.
Yes, that is the way I see it.

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Old 01-28-2017, 04:15 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Katsunami View Post
In that case, if me downloading the book through the Way Back Machine can be considered piracy (or at least, unethical), the logical followup is that the Way Back Machine itself is committing a copyright violation by keeping the old page and files on record and publicly available.
Good Point!
Here is the Internet Archive's Terms of Use, Privacy Policy, and Copyright Policy https://archive.org/about/terms.php

If you read through it they do not guarantee that all material is free of copyright restrictions, in fact they state that the 'researcher' must abide by local Intellectial Property laws

and that
"The Internet Archive may, in appropriate circumstances and at its discretion, remove certain content or disable access to content that appears to infringe the copyright or other intellectual property rights of others. If you believe that your copyright has been violated by material available through the Internet Archive, please provide the Internet Archive Copyright Agent with the following information:

Identification of the copyrighted work that you claim has been infringed;
An exact description of where the material about which you complain is located within the Internet Archive collections;
Your address, telephone number, and email address;
A statement by you that you have a good-faith belief that the disputed use is not authorized by the copyright owner, its agent, or the law;
A statement by you, made under penalty of perjury, that the above information in your notice is accurate and that you are the owner of the copyright interest involved or are authorized to act on behalf of that owner; and
Your electronic or physical signature.
The Internet Archive Copyright Agent can be reached as follows:

Internet Archive Copyright Agent
Internet Archive
300 Funston Ave.
San Francisco, CA 94118
Phone: 415-561-6767
Email: info@archive.org"
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Old 01-28-2017, 04:16 PM   #12
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The attitude expressed in the OP seems awfully self serving.
So, lets assume you missed a giveaway, and are now a book short in a series you can never complete by any official means. A friend, who DID download the book during the giveaway, tells you about the Way Back Machine, or even proposes to just copy the book for you.

Are you going to say: "Nah, thanks man. Missed it; can't take it now. I have to live with it that the series will never be complete."

That seems awfully pretentious.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ekbell View Post
Good Point!

.....

If you read through it they do not guarantee that all material is free of copyright restrictions, in fact they state that the 'researcher' must abide by local Intellectial Property laws...
In the past, downloading any media (movies music, books) was legal, because we paid taxes to do so. A download was seen as a copy for personal use (which was allowed even if you didn't have the original).

Now, the law states that downloading 'copyrighted material from a clearly illegal source' is prohibited. Is an archive of the official giveaway site, created by a well-known agency (the Way Back Machine / Internet Archive) 'clearly illegal' ?

If so, I shouldn't have downloaded the book, and almost the entire internet archive should be destroyed, as the site is now in the same league as a Torrent site. If not, it may never be possible to remove once-free material from the internet completely, and you should take that into consideration if you offer something for free. I.e., put up a Robots.txt file, or put the book behind a (temporary) login, so the Internet Archive can't grab it.

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Old 01-28-2017, 04:25 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katsunami View Post
So, lets assume you missed a giveaway, and are now a book short in a series you can never complete by any official means. A friend, who DID download the book during the giveaway, tells you about the Way Back Machine, or even proposes to just copy the book for your.

Are you going to say: "Nah, thanks man. Missed it; can't take it now. I have to live with it that the series will never be complete."

That seems awfully pretentious.
I would get the free copy, but I would also know that I was in the wrong for doing so.

ETA: A large selection of books published by Open Road Media were available for free for a limited time on Amazon last year. I do not think that entitles me to obtain free copies of these books from somewhere else now.

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Old 01-28-2017, 04:25 PM   #14
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I would say no, but some of that is how I define piracy. Some people define piracy much more broadly than I do. I would say that I find that using this method to get an ebook for free, if it is available in a regular ebook store for a competitive price, to be a bit unethical. I don't necessarily think that it's unethical to use this method to get an ebook if it isn't available via normal means. So basically, I consider it unethical to use such means to avoid paying for the ebook, rather than using such means to fill out your collection of a series, if that makes sense.

But then again, my position on ebooks and copyright is that I have an ethical obligation to pay a fair market price for ebook that I want, but the flip side is the copyright holder has an equal ethical obligation to make sure that the work is available.
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Old 01-28-2017, 04:35 PM   #15
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I agree: if I'd want a book that was once for free, but now isn't but still available, I'd pay for it. I wouldn't label getting it through the WBM as piracy, as that site is maintained by a well-known organization with a well-known purpose, and it stands apart from mere Torrent sites. You can easily avoid being indexed by the WBM. It could be considered unethical though, avoiding to pay for for an available work that is no longer free.

On the other hand, if it's a giveaway that's not available anywhere anymore, I'd definitely get it through the WBM as there is no other option available.
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