Amazon's vertical integration/monopoly

[DiapDealer]

Oh, now I get it. This is a soliloquy. I'll stop interrupting.

[notimp]

Originally Posted by DiapDealer

It hasn't taken a single thing from me. I buy a considerable amount of books from Amazon, and despite the apparent "takeover" of the kfx format, I've yet to buy, download, or read a single Amazon book in the kfx format. Not one. So why do I care about its inability to be converted to other formats again? Kfx continues to be a non-factor for those who place a high value on archiving and/or converting their purchases. And it will continue to be so until there are no easy end-runs around kfx.

Contrast that with the many Topaz books that got foisted upon me over the years (with no way to avoid getting them without going to another retailer).

Yes, because of two reasons.

- Amazon provides a company set up loophole to circumvent the .kfx delivery (which is automatically enforced) - for people who know not to bite, and invest extra steps to still be able to get out an older file format

- You knowing that you should use it.

--

Now look at the structural problems in that.

- Why should Amazon be the sole proprietor of "access" to a certain "openness" that has be part of books for the past two millenia?
- Why should they be able to control and protocoll who accesses that option?
- Why should they be able to shape its demand - because, currently they are aleready adding "hoops to jump through", and their design looks like straight out of the late 90s - so thats what we stand by? As the model for the future?
- Why should only the people "in the know" be able to still get "books" out of the Amazon ecosystem?
- Why has there to be this forced choice of "either I get a book" - "or I get new features, that make reading more accessible (.kfx is the only format with ligatures and the only format that doesnt see hyphenation as a thing that the user himself has to add after the purchase)"

-Why do we all eat this with as "yes master, may I please have another" attitude - in the fear of "it getting far worse in the future"

- Why do probably almost 90% of Kindle users never get in touch with a file format thats humanly understandable (or fit for archival purposes (sue me )) anymore?
- Why is all of this considered somewhat "taboo" to be talked about - in fact, I'm still the only one forcing the issue out in the open-

while you have all kind of technical "masterminds" finding creative reasons for why this is just, so that the pages might turn 10% faster...

Oh - and just to resolve two misconceptions as well - first, you are not buying books from Amazon, you are buying reading licenses. And as far as formats go - .kfx is the current standard - trying to convince me, that a majority is pulling out older formats from the Amazon ecosystem - as something "advertised" doesn't have legs.

It isn't advertised. In fact - its a controlled, regulated, and possibly extra messy way (design intention), to get to an older format thats still understood. For purposes of managing a controlled opposition and the poor (people with older Amazon eReaders that don't get updated anymore).

Now - back to the 90% of people that get .kfx autodelivered onto their Kindles.

Should we ignore them as well? We can look the other way - because there are still other options?

Not such a great argument.

Also - not sure what the "I still buy Amazon - and I don't feel any restrictions" part of your argument was meant to instill, but may I ask - why, at this point?

So you are insisting that you still should support a company thats voved to take the book out of the public sphere, and jumping through company loopholes to - purposely not get the autodelivered book, but log in once more, and then download the legacy format - and end up with an .azw3...

Instead of buying the format somewhere where you can get it as an epub (= non binary format) and then convert it to .azw3 with an program thats open source like calibre?

Why?

Three potential answers.

- Book isn't available anywhere else (> factual monopoly)
- I'm too set in my ways (> behavioral design and soft "lock in" were successful, marketing has done its job - "hurray")
- I don't care what happens in the future (> mobilism.com forum position on this issue since day 1)

[Cinisajoy]

If the book is not available in other places, that is not because of Amazon.
Amazon did not in any way force or coerce any author to check the Select box. That is 100% the author's choice.
So no, Amazon is NOT making any book unavailable to the general public.
The author can choose to be exclusive with Amazon but it is not a requirement.
If I wanted I could upload my pdf cookbook to Amazon. I set the price, not Amazon unless I accidentally price it lower and then Amazon will match it. I can choose to be exclusive by going only with Amazon for a couple of perks or I can choose to go wide.
Now since Amazon takes a percentage of the sale price, I would trust them to send the best format for the customer's choice of device to read on.

All or most businesses have something proprietary. Just because I can't get the actual recipe for Jelly Bellys doesn't mean the company is trying to take over the jelly bean industry. It means they are keeping it a secret to protect their profits.
Now I would bet in under 30 seconds I could find a comparable ebook format or jelly bean recipe.
Yep 10 seconds for both.
There are at least 6 ebook formats and numerous jelly bean recipes.

And once again what do you want the 90% by your estimate to do about this format?

[DiapDealer]

Last interruption: I promise.

Originally Posted by notimp

- Why do probably almost 90% of Kindle users never get in touch with a file format thats humanly understandable (or fit for archival purposes (sue me )) anymore?

Simple. Because well over 90% of Kindle users don't give the slightest damn about file formats, archiving their purchases, or about DRM. They just want to read a book and buy another one.

Originally Posted by notimp

Now - back to the 90% of people that get .kfx autodelivered onto their Kindles.

Should we ignore them as well? We can look the other way - because there are still other options?

Yes. That's exactly right. We ignore the people who don't give a damn. Just like the way it's always been. Until such time as they start giving a damn; and then we inform them of their options (which they'll very likely still have).

[notimp]

@DiapDealer: Also consider yourself to be the prime example that now pops up in my head - whenever I have to explain to people in the future why -

"Voting with your money -"

never works, and never has.

All structural, ethical, environmental, ... deliberations go straight out the window -

when people are weighing

- easy
- cost
and
- comfort

instead.

In fact - if buying at "Whole Foods" wouldn't give you bragging rights in a select social circle - people would press the Amazon mail order button for the next product Alexa suggests they should buy - when they ask it for a kitchen roll - every day of the week.

This is the full circle to why amazon destroying the notion of the book as a public good (or even a intellectual good, or a work of art, ..) - ultimately is an issue that has to be tackled with regulation.

And be it a form of self regulation within the company.

You can't pronounce "easy" - and then don't tell anyone the consequences. People have a tendency to go for easy, or the stuff "they know" -

which reminds me - this was a bait and switch, right? Amazon changed their "product offering" mid product cycle - and without announcing it as something that had any notable differences.

Thats why it didn't make the news.

(But if Bezos tweets, new product announcement impending - 200 blog articles in 3 hours...)

[Cinisajoy]

How in the heck is offering a book electronically destroying the notion of a book?

Look I personally don't give a damn whether my next cookbook is big paper, small paper, big hardback, small hardback, spiral bound, papers stapled together, epub, mobi, azw3, lit, kfx or pdf as long as it is readable and I can use it whichever way is handiest.
Now I really wouldn't want to be a sent a pdf to my kindle if it can be helped, but I would hope wherever I bought it from would send me a usable format for the device I have chosen.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by shalym

Say it with me...KFX is not a problem.

If KFX has DRM and it can't be removed, then it *is* a problem, because one way or another, Amazon will be moving everything to it as fast as they can; either by having K4PC download KFX too, or by dropping the entire application and preventing it from downloading anything. I.e., if you want to read a book, you'll have to download it onto your reader.

This would mean you're no longer able to control your own library if you don't have an old reader lying around. (And eventually, support for those will be stopped as well.)

If a format has unremovable DRM, I will NEVER buy anything in it.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

If KFX has DRM and it can't be removed, then it *is* a problem, because one way or another, Amazon will be moving everything to it as fast as they can; either by having K4PC download KFX too, or by dropping the entire application and preventing it from downloading anything. I.e., if you want to read a book, you'll have to download it onto your reader.

This would mean you're no longer able to control your own library if you don't have an old reader lying around. (And eventually, support for those will be stopped as well.)

If a format has unremovable DRM, I will NEVER buy anything in it.

Well since at Amazon, it is up to the publisher to decide whether a book has DRM, the format doesn't matter.
If a publisher says DRM then all their ebooks sold will have DRM. If a publisher says NO DRM then none of the formats will have DRM.

KFX is one format. I am pretty sure that Amazon isn't going to screw over their customers.

Look Jeff didn't get to be as big as he is by screwing his customers.

Someone give me proof that Amazon is making one format for every book ever published.
And that Amazon will be the only place to get ebooks.

Just because the hackers can't manipulate it, does not make it bad.

Now document your accusations with proof.
Please.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Now document your accusations with proof.
Please.

I don't have to. Look at the history of formats and DRM and the support of it. Support *WILL* be dropped at some point in time.

If one company is the sole company in a market selling a DRM-ed format, they're basically lawmaker, judge and executioner. That's a logical effect of being the only one. If something happens to this company, many people will lose access to their media.

It has been proven over and over again, in the music, video, and games industries, as well as in the book business.

There is no reason for anyone to keep jackassing with different formats, be they AZW3, KFX, or even KEPUB. One could just pick EPUB, and extend it, but stay with a certain base line. Then, if a reader supports the extensions (which can be proprietary for all I care), the reader has different/better functionality with such a book, but if the reader doesn't, the book would be a normal EPUB book.

With regard to DRM: it's useless.

Always was. Always will be. Pirates gonna pirate, somehow. GOG.com proves you can live without DRM. They provide games for fair prices, fully patched, and with all the extra's. People could just give them away, as there's no DRM whatsoever. But what do we find? GOG.com exists for 8 years now, and people love them because there's no fuss. You buy a game, you own it, and the fact that they patch everything up to the latest versions and have great support.

In short, they're providing exactly what people want, and gamers are throwing money at them, even going as far as adopting a "If it's not on GOG.com, I won't buy it" stance. And yes, I'm one of them.

Proprietary formats and DRM should all die out.

[crane3]

Haven't read all the msgs. But believe that the Amazon virtual "monopoly" is due to the other companies messing themselves up. e.g. Barnes & Nobel killing the ability to download one's own books easily. Then there is Google books who thinks some purchased books are NOT ALLOWED to be downloaded & can only be read using Google Books.

I encountered the 2nd instance before but didn't care about that "free" book. A few weeks back got into the 2nd example on a text book. NO way will I want to be limited to a wifi connection to read my book & being required to use a certain book reader.

Got my money back from Google & went to Amazon that had the same book & downloadable to my computer as well as the Fire HDX. Did the conversion but it does take a "long" time to convert a 177 megabyte file.

As far as "monopolies" go, get an ipad & use itunes for your books & try to use other ereaders available like Moon+ Reader. Did read that itunes books haven't been "unlocked"; but I don't care as the ipad is too expensive for me to do what I want. I have a Mini Mac & cannot even get rid of itunes which I don't use as "it is part of the system os"; cannot even change the system font size to be readable. Talk about a Fascist company.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by Katsunami

I don't have to. Look at the history of formats and DRM and the support of it. Support *WILL* be dropped at some point in time.

If one company is the sole company in a market selling a DRM-ed format, they're basically lawmaker, judge and executioner. That's a logical effect of being the only one. If something happens to this company, many people will lose access to their media.

It has been proven over and over again, in the music, video, and games industries, as well as in the book business.

There is no reason for anyone to keep jackassing with different formats, be they AZW3, KFX, or even KEPUB. One could just pick EPUB, and extend it, but stay with a certain base line. Then, if a reader supports the extensions (which can be proprietary for all I care), the reader has different/better functionality with such a book, but if the reader doesn't, the book would be a normal EPUB book.

With regard to DRM: it's useless.

Always was. Always will be. Pirates gonna pirate, somehow. GOG.com proves you can live without DRM. They provide games for fair prices, fully patched, and with all the extra's. People could just give them away, as there's no DRM whatsoever. But what do we find? GOG.com exists for 8 years now, and people love them because there's no fuss. You buy a game, you own it, and the fact that they patch everything up to the latest versions and have great support.

In short, they're providing exactly what people want, and gamers are throwing money at them, even going as far as adopting a "If it's not on GOG.com, I won't buy it" stance. And yes, I'm one of them.

Proprietary formats and DRM should all die out.

Yes, but it is NOT Amazon that decides whether to DRM.
It is up to the publisher. Except in a very few cases, Amazon is NOT the publisher. They are the distributor. So don't tell me that it is format specific with Amazon. It is not and never has been.
Amazon has not taken away any formats.

If you buy ebooks, please look at the publisher to see if it has DRM.

If I buy the latest Stephen King ebook., it will have DRM because the publisher insists. It doesn't matter if it comes in azw3, mobi, kfx, epub (from wherever) or pdf, it will have DRM.

If I buy Hugh Howey, it will not have DRM if I get it through Amazon. That is the publisher's choice.

If one doesn't like that a company uses proprietary practices, please do not give that company any money. (Good luck finding a company that doesn't do that.)

[jhowell]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

If I buy Hugh Howey, it will not have DRM if I get it through Amazon. That is the publisher's choice.

Unfortunately, Amazon breaks that rule with KFX. Even Hugh Howey's books are delivered using the DRM-enabled form of KFX (called DRMION). This is done in a way that allows them to be freely copied from one kindle device to another, but they still have strong encryption that prevents access to the book's contents.

This is not a big deal at the moment since Amazon continues to make these books available in other formats that do not have encryption applied.

ETA: Publishers and authors who want their books to be available DRM-free would make a fuss if Amazon ever did away with the alternative formats, creating a big publicity problem. This is one reason why I don't think that it will happen any time soon.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by jhowell

Unfortunately, Amazon breaks that rule with KFX. Even Hugh Howey's books are delivered using the DRM-enabled form of KFX (called DRMION). This is done in a way that allows them to be freely copied from one kindle device to another, but they still have strong encryption that prevents access to the book's contents.

This is not a big deal at the moment since Amazon continues to make these books available in other formats that do not have encryption applied.

ETA: Publishers and authors who want their books to be available DRM-free would make a fuss if Amazon ever did away with the alternative formats, creating a big publicity problem. This is one reason why I don't think that it will happen any time soon.

Thanks. So if I want to make sure Hugh is free from locks use a device that doesn't support kfx.

[Katsunami]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Yes, but it is NOT Amazon that decides whether to DRM.

In my opinion, it is Amazon who decides if DRM is an option or not.

Amazon is huge in ebooks, just like Steam is for games.

What do you think would happen if Steam stated "No more DRM", just like Gog.com does? Gog.com is still not big enough to force the issue at around 10% market share, but Steam is. Games publishers would lose something like 50% of their market coverage if they'd refuse to publish games on Steam. So, if Steam says no DRM, there will be no DRM, period.

If Amazon would decide that there is to be no more DRM, nowhere, publishers would lose most of their ebook sales if they'd refuse to publish a book through Amazon. What's Amazon's market share? 80%? 90%?

IMHO, these big players decide what goes or not.

With regard to formats, as I stated, there's no reason to develop proprietary formats. EPUB is sufficient to create ebooks, and everything a company wants to add specifically for their e-readers could be an extension to it which would not be mandatory to have to read the book.

To use Gog.com/Steam as an example again:

Steam REQUIRES me to use a client to install the games, and to have it running when I run the game. I can't download the game, archive it, and later install it onto this, or another computer without using the internet.

On Gog.com, I can do exactly that. Yes, they have a client as well, and it can download and install games. However, that client just downloads normal installation files which I can archive, install without using the client or the internet, and then run the game without the client. As long as I have a compatible computer on which a game will run, it will install and work, even in 50 years time.

I like the Gog.com format much more, because it makes me independent of everything and everyone after I acquire and download the media.

This is the same as with un-DRM-ed EPUB (and AZW3, as the format has been reverse-engineered), but with KFX, you'll be dependent on Amazon. At least as long as the files are DRM-ed; I don't know if there are un-DRM-ed KFX files around which have been used to reverse-engineer that format.

[Cinisajoy]

Amazon offers DRM as an option. If they didn't have that option none of the big 5 would let Amazon distribute their books.
I do believe a couple of other ebook sellers require their security (drm) attached to all their files. I think Apple and Google are two of them?

Now on the other side, why should books only be epub? What about pdf? Or do you consider that a document file?
What is so great about epub?