Marvin 3.0

[kguil]

@Mr. Goodbar what do you see when you tap the 'sync' button in the bottom toolbar?

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Faterson

I disagree – it's extremely hands-on and practical. When you see multiple listings for a single author in the comprehensive authors listing in your Library, this is a very practical alert for you to fix your meta-tags. What more could anyone wish for? Do you really believe that a user would prefer to see authors sorted according to their first names instead, even though he/she checked the "sort by last names" preference in Marvin settings?

The "best solution" I was referring to is, of course, implementing a vastly complicated algorithm to properly derive the right sort data from the author field, which, if it existed, would mean no one would have ever created a sort field to begin with.

Every other solution requires you to sacrifice something. And while you might prefer the awkwardness of seeing duplicated authors (because correctness is the prime virtue) kguil has to think of what most users would prefer to see.

And while I respect and sympathize with your preference (being a compulsive metadata correcter), I absolutely refuse to entertain the notion that you automatically know what everyone would prefer. That is a rather ambitious claim!
In fact, the average person has proven to be below average. () And Apple aggressively targets those people -- so maybe it makes sense for iOS app makers to do likewise. Not saying that is the case here, though it might be.

Nope, that wouldn't work at all. Many authors have several last names, and many books have several authors.

And yet, that seems to be exactly what calibre does... several last names or not.

As for several authors, the author list will already be splitting those for each author listed separately in the OPF.

Why would you wish to re-invent the wheel, eschwartz? Everything Marvin 3 needs to produce reasonable authors sorting already is available in Marvin 3: namely, the (unfortunately labelled) "author sort" meta-tag field. That is all that is needed. The unacceptable flaw in Marvin 3 is that despite Marvin 3 having such a meta-tag field, it chooses to ignore the data entered in that field in the comprehensive authors listing. And that's a big no-no, as I believe even you admitted.

I have admitted it is not ideal, but I have also stated that I can understand if someone says it isn't practical to implement.
Which seems to be kguil's belief -- so why don't we wait for him to get around to writing that blog post? Unless you believe continuing to assert your counter-claim will change his mind?

Well, all I know is that the fix I'm proposing does not come with any performance penalties whatsoever – because it's a trivial fix, fully logical and reasonable, and because I simply wish for Marvin 3 to work like Marvin 2 and Marvin 1 in terms of authors sorting: allowing us to sort authors either by their last names, or by their first names – whichever option the Marvin user prefers. And this is perfectly possible even with the current menu options in Marvin 3 – if only Kris finally agreed to put the meta-tag fields, primarily that (unfortunately labeled) "author sort" field, to their proper use!

You don't know it is that simple, you assume it.
I don't know either way, and I am not going to assume.

It is not always that simple.

[Mr. Goodbar]

Originally Posted by kguil

@Mr. Goodbar what do you see when you tap the 'sync' button in the bottom toolbar?

It would only show the device I was using. I tried multiple things, turning off sync, re-enabling etc. but nothing worked. Finally restored Marvin on my phone from the the backup of Marvin on my ipad. That seems to have fixed it.

[Loosheesh]

In M2, highlighted text would have a light underline to let you know there were annotations attached - it doesn't seem to be available with M3; any possibility of getting it back?

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

The "best solution" I was referring to is, of course, implementing a vastly complicated algorithm to properly derive the right sort data from the author field, which, if it existed, would mean no one would have ever created a sort field to begin with.

Right. But since we already have that (awkwardly named) "author sort" field, all that needs to be done is to utilize it properly, which Marvin 3 – for a reason mysterious to me – refuses to do.

Thinking up other and supposedly "smarter" solutions would, from my perspective, be "re-inventing the wheel", given that the "wheel" is already here: the "author sort" field. It may not be an ultra-smart wheel, a Ferrari wheel, just a creaky wooden wheel perhaps, but... it will do its job, if we only let it do its job.

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I absolutely refuse to entertain the notion that you automatically know what everyone would prefer.

No, of course not. But I'd venture to say, that if a user selects the "sort by last names" option in Marvin settings, but then finds authors sorted by their first names anyway, in the comprehensive authors listing, then that user is pretty certain to get dismayed. Is it a good strategy to dismay your users? I don't think so. Especially when Marvin 2 and Marvin 1 were smart enough to oblige every user's preference in terms of authors sorting. Why should Marvin 3, as an upgraded software version, be less smart than its earlier versions?

Originally Posted by eschwartz

In fact, the average person has proven to be below average. () And Apple aggressively targets those people -- so maybe it makes sense for iOS app makers to do likewise.

It's a despicable and effective strategy. Yes, ultimately each of us involved in a creative endeavor must decide whether we wish to target the dumb masses at large, or the smart subset within the masses. That's always going to be a minority. I assumed that Marvin was e-reader software targeting that demanding minority among book readers. (Mind you, book readers as such are likewise a minority among all humans.) I hope I'm not wrong in that assumption.

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Unless you believe continuing to assert your counter-claim will change his mind?

Absolutely. I'm a big believer in the ability of calm, rational discussion to influence people so that they change their mind about things. That's why I was so disappointed about the Marvin 3 Beta-testing process – no discussions among Beta-testers took place, and Kris was only talking to each individual Beta-tester in isolation. I believe we're now harvesting the bitter fruit of that unfortunate decision to shut down a "collective" Beta-testing process. Not just here on MobileRead, but also over on Marvin's Facebook page now, in the midst of well-deserved praise, some folks are also complaining about this or that missing Marvin 2 feature, some of which I was objecting to during Beta-testing as well, but Kris chose to go ahead and release Marvin 3 anyway. I'm pretty sure if the Beta discussions had been held in a wider team of Beta-testers, as in the old Marvin 2 and Marvin 1 Beta-testing days, more Beta-testers than just a single person might have chimed in with their input, supporting fellow Beta-testers' suggestions, thus influencing Kris to implement the suggestion being put forward. I can remember that this happened very often during Marvin 2 and Marvin 1 Beta-testing: one of us would suggest something, Kris would initially reject it, but then other Beta-testers would support the original suggestion, saying, "Nope, that's a good idea, please think about it." And quite a few times, this led to Kris reversing his original position, and implementing the suggestion. (It's not about my suggestions; sometimes, my suggestions would receive support from fellow Beta testers, and at other times, I would support suggestions put forward by fellow Beta testers. That's what team effort is all about.) None of this "collective deliberation" was taking place during Marvin 3 Beta-testing, so we just need to deal with the consequences now.

[democrite]

Originally Posted by Faterson

… I annotate fiction every bit as much as non-fiction.

Indeed I do as well. I only did not say it since I felt it unnecessary, wanted to be brief, and one point was possibly enough to convince someone who said they don't use highlighting. In fact me saying anything was possibly unneeded since the original person and most others already understand its use. Even replying to you in this case was unneeded since it doesn't really add much.

Originally Posted by Faterson

… the "wheel" is already here: the "author sort" field. It may not be an ultra-smart wheel, a Ferrari wheel, just a creaky wooden wheel perhaps, but... it will do its job, if we only let it do its job.

As for replying to this, I'm not sure why I am either, perhaps only as an attempt to help keep the thread more useful for others without continued discussion of the same thing.

I'm not sure how many ePubs you have. There is quite a variety of ways that authors can be listed, and quite often, perhaps most of the time, author sort is unused, or other times sort is listed as "First Last", or includes multiple authors, also listed in a variety of ways. As said before, what I gather is perhaps Kris thought it was a good idea to once use "author sort", which the average user is possibly unaware of what that is, or sort by last name, but likely it displayed a mess to a significant amount of users. Plus there seems to be nothing in the OPF spec to say file-as needs to be "Last, First" and expecting the average person to fix all their metadata is a no go.

Marvin seems to be Kris' main app. If he doesn't already exclusively make a living from his iOS apps, that is possibly a goal so he is perhaps appealing to whatever is going to sell well, keep with iOS design principles, and offer enough features to appeal to as many users as possible without making what most people use and the most used features more complicated than necessary. To me, despite how much I like M3, I feel many of the most used features are already a bit cumbersome, perhaps not placed where it could be most accessible, or placed along with so many other options that the effort to find something, even if it takes only an additional second, is too much. I'd consider reorganizing quite a few of the settings into different screens like iOS Settings, offer a search, and possibly consider even moving some, like # of recents to the screen where it's used if it can be done in a nice way, which in that case I'm not sure since I might find an extra button on that or some other screen a bit unelegant. Other settings like Dropbox I might move to the Dropbox menu since they're not often used, it seems to me more easily used there, and would cleanup General settings. Fonts, if it were up to me, I'd choose 10-15 or so of the most screen readable fonts including a few that aren't so great but offer better Unicode coverage, remove the rest, and make adding fonts either from the web, like Google, built in to iOS, or side loaded easier.

On and on, there's quite a bit I think could use refining. Yet overall, I am quite happy with M3. If in the future, features are removed, refined, or changed, if it helps Kris make the app more popular and sell better, I'm ok with that and would possibly choose that to some degree as well if it were my app. In any case, M3 is certainly good enough for a 3.0 and likely Kris wanted to get it out so he can again earn something from it, and continue to add features later.

What you have said is already well known, Kris is without doubt quite aware, and who knows, maybe he is still considering it, working on it, or plans it, but has not said anything since he's not sure if he can get it right and maybe doesn't plan to add it or say any more until and if it can be done as he'd like. Perhaps it seems ok to converse like this on the net, yet if you're unaware, you can be quite unpleasant as other people have mentioned, and if you did this in real life, you'd alienate colleagues and friends as perhaps have already. You've been on my ignore list for a few days, but I was curious what all the posts were about. Back you go.

If you want to continue discussing this in particular, or something else that has already been mentioned and Kris or other staff are likely already aware of but perhaps don't reply since they are aware, or possibly are busy enough with everything else, please start a new thread.

Edit: im having problems with selecting text, particularly near the margins. Maybe that's known. Also had an idea to show the section title in place of 'CONTENTS'; that seems like a good place even if a later in-app tutorial or context sensitive help might be needed to explain that and other things.

Edit 2: tried the reading journal and it is wonderful. I think colors there coild use a bit more emphasis. A long press in the journal could show the share menu, like Tweetbot. For highlighting, is the confirm to delete necessary? I'd consider it uneeded as a confirm isnt needed to highlight or perform other actions. Same perhaps with OPDS downloads which seem to sometimes confirm and others not if i recall correctly.

[svenlind]

Originally Posted by kguil

@Mr. Goodbar what do you see when you tap the 'sync' button in the bottom toolbar?

I have/had the same problem as Mr. Goodbar.

I then deleted the book in question from both my devices, and then redownloaded the book from Calibre to my two iPads.

Now sync is working for this book.

The Marvin on my mini iPad was restored from Marvin 2, on my iPad Pro I just fetched a couple of books from Calibre.

For sync to work it seems that the copies should originate from the exact same source.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by svenlind

I have/had the same problem as Mr. Goodbar.

I then deleted the book in question from both my devices, and then redownloaded the book from Calibre to my two iPads.

Now sync is working for this book.

The Marvin on my mini iPad was restored from Marvin 2, on my iPad Pro I just fetched a couple of books from Calibre.

For sync to work it seems that the copies should originate from the exact same source.

You can't restore from Marvin 2 on one device and download from Calibre on the other and then sync them. I had the same issue in the beta and when I sent to two copies of the book to Kris, there were subtle differences between them, leading Marvin to think they were actually different books. I ended up downloading everything from Calibre on both devices and then everything worked fine.

Bit of a pain downloading almost 3000 books on each device, but you only have to do it once per device. Hopefully, doing this will also make things go smoother when they get the Calibre plug-in working again.

[svenlind]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

.
Bit of a pain downloading almost 3000 books on each device, but you only have to do it once per device. Hopefully, doing this will also make things go smoother when they get the Calibre plug-in working again.

Thank you for that information. I will redownload my books.

It is actually not a great problem for me. I normally only have a dozen or so books on my readers.
All organising is in Calibre.

[democrite]

I haven't tried syincing yet but it is a bit of a concern for me. I might later modify metadata like separate authors or add file-as, edit the title to add subtitle, etc, or switch OPDS servers. Hope the method of determining what is a unique book is decent enough for that and other minor changes.

[Kumabjorn]

Originally Posted by kguil

@Kuma Tap on it any choose the pencil from the menu. Otherwise, if you want an option add a note to a newly created highlight immediately: Settings > EPUB > Turn on "Highlight and Annotate". Note the EPUB menu is also accessible when you're in a book (In book Main Menu > Advanced EPUB settings).

Hmm, in my version the pencil icon creates a highlight.

Twitter is to communications as haiku is to literature.

[Kumabjorn]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Hopefully, doing this will also make things go smoother when they get the Calibre plug-in working again.

Wow pardner there is a Calibre plug-in for Marvin? Please tell more.

Twitter is to communications as haiku is to literature.

[kguil]

@democrite A strict match has been the most reliable method so far. I'll revise the method for determining whether M is dealing with the same book if I notice it's causing lots of trouble down the line.

[Faterson]

Originally Posted by democrite

im having problems with selecting text, particularly near the margins.

I confirm this. Very often, when selecting a word close to the left or right margin of the screen, Marvin flips the page instead of highlighting the word. Workaround: start selecting different words towards the center of the screen, then narrow the selection back towards that word close to an edge of the screen.

Originally Posted by democrite

For highlighting, is the confirm to delete necessary?

Yes, totally necessary, at least to me, although I suggested to Kris that the confirmation might be made optional. The thing is, the recycle-bin button is located right next to the "open highlight" button – it would be too easy to mistakenly delete a highlight instead of opening it. And not just delete the highlight, but perhaps also a lengthy annotation attached to it. So, I believe a confirmation is a must here.

Originally Posted by democrite

tried the reading journal and it is wonderful.

The Journal in Marvin 3 is, to me, absolutely awful and useless. What's the good of a journal when you can't even revisit the original location where a highlight was made, to reexamine it again in a wider context?

Originally Posted by democrite

You've been on my ignore list for a few days, but I was curious what all the posts were about. Back you go.

How very gracious of you. This is your idea of being "pleasant" to others, right?

Originally Posted by democrite

If you want to continue discussing this in particular, [...], please start a new thread.

Thanks, but keep your advice to yourself, if you will. Given how "super-friendly" you are, I'm unlikely to heed it, right?

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by Kumabjorn

Wow pardner there is a Calibre plug-in for Marvin? Please tell more.

Twitter is to communications as haiku is to literature.

Well, it doesn't work at the moment. Apparently Apple changed some things causing the plugin to stop working a year or so ago.

It use to allow you to sync your books in Marvin with the books in calibre, as well as sync your reading list, read list, percent read and categories. When it was working, life was good!

According to posts, when things settle down a bit, Kris will publish the sync interface and the fellow who wrote the Calibre plug in plans to support it. Once this happens, life will indeed be good again and we will be back in the land of milk and honey.