Amazon's vertical integration/monopoly

[notimp]

@darryl: I wish I had read this sooner...

You are making an argument I never made, and then #WINNING against it. It's an old method.. Sprinkle a few "plethoras" in there for style - and call it case closed?

I am not arguing for brick and mortar (I am sorry folks, but 40% of commerce soon will be online only). I am halfheartedly arguing for "the other publishers", but only as a means to be able to get out of the quagmire that has already opened up.

I would also argue that Amazon will be a worse "cultural entity" in maintaining the "essence" of the book, than if you'd keep the stakes (as in "has to and also can still produce an ebook") distributed and not have people all follow their model of - "hyphenations for the masses only if they buy our premium format" and "how about we look over your shoulder, count the pages you read, and then distribute funds accordingly -- hey its the advertising model - its great.."

Also - regarding the "library" sidedebate... When was the last time you had to watch ads, or got billed there in regards to the "involvement" you showed in the book you borrowed.

Also - in a recent patent filing Amazons lawyers - "in the flavor text" stated, that they would take over the lending and used market also - simply because, for them - there is no additional expense. Again, the infrastructure already is in place. Think about that for a while.. Just keep pondering on the idea for a bit. I am sure, you'll reach the same conclusions I did.

Please understand, that I am not repeating the "Amazon is bad" arguments that are out in circulation for years, I became critical of Amazons highly controversial approach to this market - after .kfx was released - and everybody failed to report on the fact that we will probably never be able to remove its DRM (not unless Amazon releases PC software that decodes it to be able to view it) -- and everyone else was cheering it on for excluding (easy) hyphenation from all Books that don't go through their "special treatment".

It was a genuine "is this the wrong movie, or.." moment. Before it became very apparent, that people were simply reproducing the marketing lines. You know - like any good online community (I hope it stings.. ).

Yes, .kfx is still a problem - as you identified correctly - and it will get worse over time (because distribution as the main file format is ongoing).

How about a little more provocative statement to end this with..

The old guard in this forum is motivated mainly by brand loyalty and the notion that they have invested countless hours in what, after a few years, amounts to "manage custom screensaver for prosumers" - because Amazon took away from them everything else.

They arent allowed to understand the device, the renderers on it, or the file format. When they tried to make sense of it anyway - Amazon slapped them in the face - so hard, that they took it to heart and never dared to do it again.

But that no one said a word - when the default file format was taken away from them, that makes it somewhat tragic. Because thats the most important cornerstone.
-

And if someone wants to fill me in, why did you - for a short time delete postings, when they mentioned .kfx?

Also, Kovid really should talk more on this issue - because the next push will be to convince people, that it is so much easier for them just to use Amazon to manage their .kfx libraries. And the kicker? It really is, because its .kfx .. (#usingcalibreishard)

Turned out - the old guard never guarded anything in the end. But keep educating guys... Love ya'll.

(Problem with my opinion is, it is early. But its sound.. )

edit: Also in light of the recent developments on the Fire TV front - start thinking about when you don't want people to update their Kindle firmwares anymore - because after all Amazon just introduced a "blocked apps" database to their Android build (thats novel! yes! and here is what it does: Lets say you sideload an app they don't like. On each reboot disable any app thats on the list on a system level so the user not only cant use, or update it - but also cant deinstall it on the UI level, rewrite adbd - so the thing the app you dont like (a launcher btw - to be more specific - a launcher without ads, unlike the one Amazon would like you to use in the future..) does (read a logcat) can't be reintroduced - not without distributing it with an old, packaged, version of that library - and finally - inject yourself in between the command line interface and the system - so when the user tries to launch any app blocked by Amazon, the call errors out).

I am mentioning this, because from a small group of consumers, the reaction to this was "you have to update - to stay in the loop, and because of potential security issues - YOU could become part of a botnet". The same argument that was used in here, around the "responsible disclosure" event. So please - don't get too used to slinging it around - it can come back and bite you...

Finally - a Linux consumer device with a "blocked apps" feature - we had to wait for it soo long... It currently blocks two launchers - simply, because Amazon wants you to spend more time looking at their ads.

Also on a sidenote - never even think about changing the Kindles UI. But thats nothing new to you... You learned that one a while ago! (Still, hope it stings...)

For the readers that are not keyed in - in the past Amazon changed their file obfuscation each and every time someone in here identified how their renderers (reader software) on the Kindle work and started to realize functions like custom page borders (all directions) or better hyphenation. I never understood why people in here let that slide... Or to be more precise - why it is seen as a thing in the past - and usually not talked about.

Its a culture thing..

I never understood why no one reacted - when they banned this communities (easy) hyphenation solution - and then turned around and started marketing it as a "premium" feature - for the new closed (no, no - its "exclusive") file format, they then imposed on to this community (and everybody else). It baffles me.

[shalym]

You realize that a tool has been developed so that we can create our own .kfx format books, right? https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho....php?p=3288333

Shari

[knc1]

Originally Posted by shalym

You realize that a tool has been developed so that we can create our own .kfx format books, right? https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho....php?p=3288333

Shari

I think you want to make that a link to post #1 rather than to post #2 from the context given.

[notimp]

Yes, I realize that. I used it myself the day it was released - and also posted a huge(/long) stylesheet (on a different forum) that went through the conversion, after playing with it for four hours to see what worked and what didn't.

If you reread my post - it is carefully worded around the fact, that we now can produce (still not fully understand) - .kfx files as well.

It was a nice - FU (sorry, harsh ) - towards Amazons ambitions to keep a wrap on the "feature exclusive" thing.

But we still dont understand the format fully (its not completely reverse engineered - and since the maintainer currently is still working solely on a trial an error basis, it will be hard to get to that point).

Besides that - there still is the issue of the "new DRM" - that has to be discussed separately but until now hasnt - because the entire format was closed. And the issue that the format isn't fit for archival purposes (one way conversion only).

Then we can tackle the issue that until the converter doesn't come with calibre - distribution and actual usage will be minimal (Unless pirates pick it up - which would be interesting from an attunement perspective (get people used to the first "read, then throw away" format from Amazon - without having them spend money for the lock in - (Ok, thats sarcasm.. )) - and because the plugin is based on closed source converters by Amazon - this currently simply isnt possible.

Also it took us (well, him.. - but structurally spoken) - more than a year to reach this point. Wile Amazon this time around launched the format the same day it was announced. When does kfxi launch, btw?

Amazon btw. never even publicly has spoken to what this new "paradigm" ("Only we (as in the company) should be able to create the most recent eBook format, and know how it works") means for them.

("How have they successfully sold this to publishers?" - being my Nr. 1 question.. )

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by notimp

Yes, I realize that. I used it myself the day it was released - and also posted a huge(/long) stylesheet (on a different forum) that went through the conversion, after playing with it for four hours to see what worked and what didn't.

If you reread my post - it is carefully worded around the fact, that we now can produce (still not fully understand) - .kfx files as well.

It was a nice - FU (sorry, harsh ) - towards Amazons ambitions to keep a wrap on the "feature exclusive" thing.

But we still dont understand the format fully (its not completely reverse engineered - and since the maintainer currently is still working solely on a trial an error basis, it will be hard to get to that point).

Besides that - there still is the issue of the "new DRM" - that has to be discussed separately but until now hasnt - because the entire format was closed. And the issue that the format isn't fit for archival purposes (one way conversion only).

Then we can tackle the issue that until the converter doesn't come with calibre - distribution and actual usage will be minimal - and because the plugin is based on closed source converters by Amazon - this currently simply isnt possible.

Also it took us (well, him.. - but structurally spoken) - more than a year to reach this point. When does kfxi launch, btw?

I read your entire last post.
One word comes to mind: PROOF.

My recommendation is if you don't like Amazon, don't support them in any way.

And please show me just one retailer that doesn't have it's own brand.

[eschwartz]

The zombie thread rises again!

It's Erev Shabbos now, so I have no time to give my usual detailed rebuttal. Maybe after Shabbos, I will see what I can do.

But I would like to point out one thing:

Originally Posted by notimp

And if someone wants to fill me in, why did you - for a short time delete postings, when they mentioned .kfx?

Moderator Notice

I have no idea what you are talking about.
MobileRead does not censor mention of KFX, now or at any other point in time.
(And I think I would notice if it happened in this subforum since I can see the moderation logs.)

Anything we do censor is clearly described in our Forum Guidelines, and tends to have excellent, highly intuitive reasons -- e.g. it is illegal or involves appalling rudeness towards other members. We also eat spam.

If you'd like to make it more official, I bet I could get someone from the administrative team to repeat everything I've just said.

[induna]

Moderators: isn't arrogant pomposity that is more than vaguely insulting and condescending a violation of the forum guidelines? (Just kidding.)

Notimp, how can you expect anyone to take you seriously when it is more than apparent that your posts are mostly designed to (try to) impress us with the profundity of your insights no matter the cost to the coherency of your arguments? The fact that you're writing in a second language is not a sufficient explanation for your repeated dependence on jargon over content, and hyperbole over fact. The episodic nature of your responses also contributes to the impression that you are not really serious about any of this, but simply enjoy, IMHO, stirring things up when you take a fancy. Nuff said.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by induna

Moderators: isn't arrogant pomposity that is more than vaguely insulting and condescending a violation of the forum guidelines? (Just kidding.)

Notimp, how can you expect anyone to take you seriously when it is more than apparent that your posts are mostly designed to (try to) impress us with the profundity of your insights no matter the cost to the coherency of your arguments? The fact that you're writing in a second language is not a sufficient explanation for your repeated dependence on jargon over content, and hyperbole over fact. The episodic nature of your responses also contributes to the impression that you are not really serious about any of this, but simply enjoy, IMHO, stirring things up when you take a fancy. Nuff said.

Eschwartz was not insulting or condescending.

Love the rest of your post.

[induna]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

Eschwartz was not insulting or condescending.

Love the rest of your post.

I meant Notimp, not Eschwartz...

[knc1]

Originally Posted by induna

- - - -
simply enjoy, IMHO, stirring things up when you take a fancy.

Well said, since we are not allowed to write the name for that here.

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by induna

I meant Notimp, not Eschwartz...

I didn't see the colon. My bad.

[darryl]

@notimp. Your latest post is simply one more example of what is set out in my preceding post. My criticisms of your posts remain and I am not going to repeat them. I just want to let you know that in future I will be ignoring your posts unless they actually contain something worth responding to. Given the history of this thread I am not holding my breath. If I don't respond you should make the obvious inference.

[notimp]

@darryl: Ignoring the issue, or me - for that matter, doest fix it.

Also - I am insistent, that I caught you rewriting what I am saying, just to be able to stifle an argument I never made.

@eschwartz: I was refering to this instance of what at least for the person experiencing it - looked like selective censorship: https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...&postcount=410

If you'd care to explain what happened there, I'd be all ears. But also - this was one stray sentence addressing some of the community culture in here.

edit: I just realized, that this seems to be a reference to another (Amazon owned) forum ( https://kdp.amazon.com/community/cat...a?categoryID=4 ) censoring the discussion about the .kfx format - if this is the case, please accept my apologies - it was not my intention, to misrepresent mobilereads policies. And thank you for putting this right. As someone who wasnt aware that this Amazon platform existed (if you dind't either, you havent missed much.. ) - I blame it on missing context in this specific case.

If I had known - that Amazon itself has shown signs of actively censoring all discussion about their .kfx file format - I wouldn't have played it as a backhanded byline against interests in here - I would have started the argument with this peculiar fact - front and center.


This is the bigger point:

While browsing through the thread again to be able to link to this posting for reference - I stumbled over several instances of "old guard members" describing in detail - that Amazons design decisions, in principle - were good (from page borders not being more customizeable to the reasonings that may be behind the .kfx format) - that were entirely unreflective fluff (not that aggressive as a statement, if you actually read them) that suggested - that most of what Amazon is doing follows a conscious deliberation as to "what is good for the customer".

From my point of view - currently this fundamentally is not the case

- The point here is, that none of the Amazon press releases in the recent past followed the Cluetrain Manifesto rules of addressing the public but were basically marketing making up new storylines. None of you probably has spoken with an actual product engineer for a while - after the LED hype in this industry came "dust and water proof" and contrast numbers that were inflated by "doubling the blackness of black", Amazon literally has tried to remove the ability to produce books from the public sphere - they have introduced a content delivery default that hurts this scene as well as the public at large (and we all agree on that) - yet this "Amazon is looking out for its customer" - principle lingers on... My argument is, that this is brand loyalty and nothing more. -

and by not being more vigilant and frankly more critical about industry moves in the past - this community has missed a trick or two. When people in here were arguing, that minimal boarder sizes (the way Amazon chooses them for you) are "good for the customer" - because they make content more readable - they chose to ignore that line length (characters per line) on 6" eReaders is well below the paperback standard, therefore impacting readability at large. Amazon here is counting on people actively being more impressed by seeing a layout that resembles that of a paperback - than them actually counting the length of a line that can be displayed on their Kindles. Or showing any understanding for the concept of adaptability that has to be in place for bigger font sizes.

Also - again, it was a feature we once had - and when Amazon took it away - people in here tend to celebrate it as a "consumer friendly" move first - and only later think about the actual implications. The same goes for counterarguing against criticism brought forward by your community about new format standards - in a way that goes like this "I don't think Amazons intent was to worsen your reading experience, ..." - when the actual argument brought forward was that they exactly did that - and context about their "intent" is just the roundabout way of moderating the discussion into "we all have to make compromises" territory.

If a new problem is evaluated - maybe, just maybe don't have your first reaction be to shut the discussion about it down as quickly as possible.

I'm not naming names - but, If you wan't to, just read trough the .kfx thread and you will find the instances.

On a more private note - dont try to write me out of the discussion in here, with nods to instances that actually didn't happen. I never once pulled the "I am not a native english speaker" card for example . It was used as a means to belittle my core argument before, when some of you guys saw the opportunity to do so. Of course - now that I provided a more general look at what happened in here from a social POV around the release of the new Amazon format - I simply must misunderstand the general mindset in here again - because of the language barrier..

This is literally the most petty reaction towards actual criticism you could have brought forward. As always - I have to address this as a form of "attack ad" type arguing. But I dont recognize it as a valid point in the discussion.

And if you don't care to have it - please don't make a point in announcing that you are not willing to do so and by that provide a social president as to why others should just ignore this argument as well. This is creating fractions ("rallying the troops" so to speak), which I am not interested in.

Don't stifle the argument - play it out. Or at least, let it play out.

Criticism isn't always a bad thing. Or as some of you like to put it - "stirring things up".

Under the "Amazon knows best" paradigm, even having a choice becomes increasingly looked down upon - because its not "as easy for the customer". Before you follow this principle, step back and look at it first.

This community increasingly becomes one that cheers, when their room, scope or freedom of action is actually reduced. And thats a curious thing - to say the least. The "values" question has to be asked at some point along this path.

edit: A community where you only "whisper" that Amazon is actively censoring discussion around their main file format on their Kindles - but the actual fact is never seen as something worthy of a discussion - or being worth taking an actual stance against. So which is it? You didn't know, you didn't care - or you dind't want to?

"Amazon would never..." doesnt work as a "catchphrase" anymore, in many aspects.

edit2: Also - I am fine with the idea that this doesnt become a hotbed of controversy each time I post something new in this thread.

I am simply over the fact that this community seemingly doesn't even want to look at the developments that happen seemingly on the sidelines of what it is concerned about.

Part of my motivation to post in here again was - seeing, that the .kfx conversion plugin was released - just to be met with the usual indifference as to what it enables and what it certainly does not.

I'll provide the context, once in a while - if you don't care to. I want people to care about what happens on a more structural level also. They don't have to always agree with my position - but they should talk about the issues this industry is facing and the paths it chose to follow.

Get engaged, have a concept of what is happening - knowing all the technicalities, but also putting them aside once in a while and looking at the bigger picture.

And just to be upfront about it - I plan to post about this sort of stuff more regularly in here - when I see a need to, because of certain ongoing developments.

As a valuable member of this community, but also as someone that holds up a mirror to it, once in a while.

[Cinisajoy]

You have me totally confused.
You come into an Amazon-centric forum and start speaking against Amazon.
Then you wonder why people aren't taking your side.

Note: The title of the forum is Amazon Kindle.
So you seem to be trying to convert Amazon friendly people.
That rarely if ever works.
Also I still need proof to even consider that you could be on to something.

[notimp]

I am sorry - but there is something deeply wrong with this view. This is mobileread, first and foremost - a community of people invested in the development of digital reading. Also some of the current developments in this field are introduced by a (distribution and online infrastructure) company named Amazon.

Of course I am addressing this in an Amazon centric forum, where else would I talk about stuff like this?

Im addressing Amazon customers, because I am one myself - and am deeply concerned with the direction this company has chosen to take - in the last few months.

- Amazon has established a new fileformat conceptualized so that they would be the only entity able to create it, then started to distribute it en mass.

Eight months in - this community was partly able to reverse a mechanism so we can create somewhat functional files within this format - but we still have no understanding how it works, we still cant create our own tools to work with it, we still cant convert it, Amazon still will not accept those files, the format cant be distributed legally.. And Amazon has switched its automated distribution to this very format (.kfx) exclusively.

- To sweeten the deal, Blogs and customers were sold on new "features" only Amazon could provide - like hyphenation and ligatures - this was done to create the notion of a "premium" format - the public won't be able to create or modify - but it would be able to purchase.

The problem? Hyphenation is not a premium feature - it is a necessity. Especially in languages other than english.

- Amazon has repeatedly moved against this very community and has stifled multiple attempts to modify the Kindles UI and renderer engines - and has decreased prosumer options along the way. Even options they themselves made available in the past - they have now taken out.

We still can sideload different eBook viewers or change the screensaver files (*hurray*) - but apart from that, try to modify anything from line size size to text rendering and Amazon will stifle your attempts with the very next firmware update.

Using custom fonts has become increasingly less viable over the last firmware updates, so just learn how to embed them in books, right?

- Over the last years, the only ongoing development in the eReader sector was cost driven. We got design rehashes, we now have a capacitive touch layer over the eInk screen because its cheaper to build, we've introduced LED lighting - to combat the reduced contrast and called the result "Paperwhite" and then told customers they can now read in the dark. (Just dont mind the blue light... Or do if you bought a Kindle Fire, where Amazoll will provide you with a LCD filter app to turn your screen orange, so you dont have to "suffer from it".)

eInk hasnt increased its reflective properties in the last generational bump - but to present us with higher contrast figures they made black darker (just read the data sheets on eink.com). And now all of a sudden water- and dust proof are what we should look out for - and dpi, well already is at a stage where increasing it doesnt lead to any further substantial benefits.
--

The additional examples I brought of Amazon introducing "blocked app" routines into their Android build - just to have customers look at their video adds more often, complete this whole look at - "how the heck are they still able to claim to act in the interest of their customers?"

They are on the verge of dealing a heavy blow to the ebook ecosystem as a whole by converting half of the market to a closed (as in even we wont understand the digital items they will sell as "books") ecosystem - and you wan't more proof, to even consider thinking about it? About what exactly? Those were all past developments - just look up news articles, postings, or ask folks in here.

How am I in a minority - thinking, that if you buy a brands devices (and I own several Kindles myself) the brand doesnt buy your loyalty alongside with that? How is it even "controversial" that I might talk to technically educated Amazon customers - being critical about the policies they (the company) have put into action?

I'd see that as normal behavior. As a social responsibility (or however you would like to call it) on my part. Look at the recent developments and then tell me if you would act differently.

Since when has the internet become a companies brand driven evangelizing platform first, and a platform to exchange thoughts and talk about important developments second?