Amazon's vertical integration/monopoly - Page 21

jhowell · 02-05-2016, 11:51 AM

I think a lot of the angst is caused by the shift from buying physical goods, to buying digital media, and now to buying "experiences". In each case there is less and less of a tangible good being purchased.

In music we went from a succession of hardware media, to digital downloads, and now the popular choice is subscribing to digital streaming. With purchased downloads DRM was used initially, but then went away as people expected to have freedom comparable with that of physical media. I think we have reached the end of that with streaming services. The consumer is now buying the listening experience. There is no need to know anything about the data formats involved and no expectation of being able to defeat the DRM in use.

Books seem to be headed the same way at Amazon. First physical books, then books as digital downloads with either no DRM or easily defeatable DRM. When e-books were new the technology was such that consumers needed to know about data formats, as with music downloads.

Now with Kindle Unlimited and KFX we are reaching a stage much like music streaming. Going forward you will purchase a reading experience without the expectation of dealing with data formats or DRM. I believe that most consumers are fine with this because of the convenience for reading now and a lack of concern over long-term access. It is becoming the new norm. Most people have better things to do with their time than micro-manage a digital music or e-book library.

There will be a minority, myself included, who will buck the trend and hold on to tangible media despite the extra work involved.

(And I agree this thread topic has nothing to do with Kindle development.)

shalym · 02-05-2016, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

For the record, I am still confused.

I think most of us are.

Shari

jhowell · 02-05-2016, 01:36 PM

To bring a development tie-in to this subject...

It seems likely to me that the only reason tools haven't been made available to remove DRM from KFX is that the result would not be as useful as the existing formats, in the same way that source code is superior to a compiled executable for software maintenance. If Amazon makes obtaining the older formats more difficult then I suspect that KFX conversion tools will become available shortly after.

KFX seems designed to support the incremental roll-out of new features. I believe that replacing fixed-layout KF8 books with "enhanced typesetting" versions will likely be next.

I was surprised that Amazon didn't introduce the downloading of books in KFX format from Manage Your Content and Devices as part of the latest Kindle firmware release. I suspect that is the long-term plan.

Rizla · 02-05-2016, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Sigh. Once again, there is no overarching issue.

Just saying it ain't so don't make it not so.

Clearly Amazon's rise to domination of the new and emerging electronic publishing technology in the English-speaking world is an overarching issue. Quite what that issue is is another matter. But it sure is an issue. One would need to be blind to 300 mega-ton elephants to not see it.

shalym · 02-05-2016, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rizla

Just saying it ain't so don't make it not so.

Clearly Amazon's rise to domination of the new and emerging electronic publishing technology in the English-speaking world is an overarching issue. Quite what that issue is is another matter. But it sure is an issue. One would need to be blind to 300 mega-ton elephants to not see it.

...and likewise, just saying that it's an issue doesn't make it one. If you don't know exactly what the problem is, how exactly do you know it's a problem? Just because a company is dominant in it's field does not mean that it's a problem. Really, it doesn't.

Shari

Rizla · 02-05-2016, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shalym

Ok...so what *does* it have to do with selling books? Are you going to answer the question, or just leave us hanging?

Well, when he refers to the pay-per-page model, he is referring to pages in books. Is this not this obvious?

eschwartz · 02-05-2016, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rizla

Just saying it ain't so don't make it not so.

That is correct.

The fact that I am right, is what makes it so.

Quote:

Clearly Amazon's rise to domination of the new and emerging electronic publishing technology in the English-speaking world is an overarching issue. Quite what that issue is is another matter. But it sure is an issue. One would need to be blind to 300 mega-ton elephants to not see it.

I understand "issue" as "something to be concerned about", or "something worth devoting brain cells to thinking about".

So, no.

If you want to discuss it further, I am pretty sure we have had numerous fascinating debates about it in the News and General Discussions subforums, which are slightly more applicable to current events and the sociological landscape than a subforum for technical discussion of hardware.

Rizla · 02-05-2016, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

That is correct.
The fact that I am right, is what makes it so.

Good argument. You win.

eschwartz · 02-05-2016, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rizla

Well, when he refers to the pay-per-page model, he is referring to pages in books. Is this not this obvious?

When I accidentally rip a page in a paperback book, it also has to do with books.

But I wouldn't presume to suggest it is relevant to this thread.

The union of the English words "page" and "book" does not, in and of itself, indicate relevance. I hope your future arguments have more background...

shalym · 02-05-2016, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rizla

Well, when he refers to the pay-per-page model, he is referring to pages in books. Is this not this obvious?

Except that, as far as I know, the "pay-per-page model" is only used for Kindle Unlimited borrows. When a book is sold, the author/publisher gets the full amount of the royalty whether the book is read or not. Therefore, the pay-per-page model has absolutely nothing to do with selling books.

Shari

Cinisajoy · 02-05-2016, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rizla

Just saying it ain't so don't make it not so.

Clearly Amazon's rise to domination of the new and emerging electronic publishing technology in the English-speaking world is an overarching issue. Quite what that issue is is another matter. But it sure is an issue. One would need to be blind to 300 mega-ton elephants to not see it.

What exactly is Amazon dominating?
Oh so there will soon be ONLY kindles.
No more iStuff? No more Android? No more Google or Kobo or Smashwords or D2D?

For those of you that want to see Amazon fail because a business should not be profitable., then do NOT shop there.
And start your own publishing and distributing company.

Last time I looked Amazon has a decent market share because people like them.
Good customer service, ease and convenience of use (most of the time) and good prices are what makes a business a success.
THERE IS NO LAW THAT SAYS YOU HAVE TO SHOP AT AMAZON.

And in all honesty, seeing posts that diss a company without facts just makes me want to shop at that company.

Reminds me of the guy that blamed a company for stealing his stuff after s hurricane.
Turns out when someone pointed out the number to call to get his stuff, he had actually lost it before the hurricane because he didn't pay his loan back.
He thought by posting male bovine excrement on the internet, the company would give him back his stuff free and take the loss.

Rizla · 02-05-2016, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

When I accidentally rip a page in a paperback book, it also has to do with books.

But I wouldn't presume to suggest it is relevant to this thread.

The union of the English words "page" and "book" does not, in and of itself, indicate relevance. I hope your future arguments have more background...

Well, this is an e-book forum, and a thread all about e-books, so I think we can safely assume that, when he said books, and Amazon, that, he, meant, e-books!

Rizla · 02-05-2016, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

What exactly is Amazon dominating?
Oh so there will soon be ONLY kindles.
No more iStuff? No more Android? No more Google or Kobo or Smashwords or D2D?

For those of you that want to see Amazon fail because a business should not be profitable., then do NOT shop there.
And start your own publishing and distributing company.

Last time I looked Amazon has a decent market share because people like them.
Good customer service, ease and convenience of use (most of the time) and good prices are what makes a business a success.
THERE IS NO LAW THAT SAYS YOU HAVE TO SHOP AT AMAZON.

And in all honesty, seeing posts that diss a company without facts just makes me want to shop at that company.

Reminds me of the guy that blamed a company for stealing his stuff after s hurricane.
Turns out when someone pointed out the number to call to get his stuff, he had actually lost it before the hurricane because he didn't pay his loan back.
He thought by posting male bovine excrement on the internet, the company would give him back his stuff free and take the loss.

Urr, yes, Amazon does dominate the e-book market in the English-speaking world. I'm not sure of the reason for the rest of your rather heated post. Is it directed at me, or are you just throwing it out there?

eschwartz · 02-05-2016, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rizla

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Sigh. Once again, there is no overarching issue.

Just saying it ain't so don't make it not so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rizla

Quote:

Originally Posted by eschwartz

That is correct.
The fact that I am right, is what makes it so.

Good argument. You win.

If you wish to debate my arguments, kindly do so.

Do NOT "debate" the preamble in which I make a thesis, and then debate the followup post when I assert (in response to a counter-assertion) that my argument is the correct one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rizla

Well, this is an e-book forum, and a thread all about e-books, so I think we can safely assume that, when he said books, and Amazon, that, he, meant, e-books!

You are completely missing the fundamental point of what I said.

Feel free to reread my original post.
For now,
> /dev/null

Rizla · 02-05-2016, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shalym

Except that, as far as I know, the "pay-per-page model" is only used for Kindle Unlimited borrows. When a book is sold, the author/publisher gets the full amount of the royalty whether the book is read or not. Therefore, the pay-per-page model has absolutely nothing to do with selling books.

Shari

But these are pages in books, right? I mean e-books btw. One person seem to be confused about that and think the poster is talking about paper books. As such, it is a way of selling (E)BOOKS!

These are (E)pages in (E)books, right? Did I miss something?

02-05-2016, 01:36 PM	#303
jhowell Grand Sorcerer Posts: 7,099 Karma: 92190113 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Charlottesville, VA Device: Kindles	To bring a development tie-in to this subject... It seems likely to me that the only reason tools haven't been made available to remove DRM from KFX is that the result would not be as useful as the existing formats, in the same way that source code is superior to a compiled executable for software maintenance. If Amazon makes obtaining the older formats more difficult then I suspect that KFX conversion tools will become available shortly after. KFX seems designed to support the incremental roll-out of new features. I believe that replacing fixed-layout KF8 books with "enhanced typesetting" versions will likely be next. I was surprised that Amazon didn't introduce the downloading of books in KFX format from Manage Your Content and Devices as part of the latest Kindle firmware release. I suspect that is the long-term plan. Last edited by jhowell; 02-05-2016 at 01:52 PM.

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02-05-2016, 11:51 AM	#301
jhowell Grand Sorcerer Posts: 7,099 Karma: 92190113 Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Charlottesville, VA Device: Kindles	I think a lot of the angst is caused by the shift from buying physical goods, to buying digital media, and now to buying "experiences". In each case there is less and less of a tangible good being purchased. In music we went from a succession of hardware media, to digital downloads, and now the popular choice is subscribing to digital streaming. With purchased downloads DRM was used initially, but then went away as people expected to have freedom comparable with that of physical media. I think we have reached the end of that with streaming services. The consumer is now buying the listening experience. There is no need to know anything about the data formats involved and no expectation of being able to defeat the DRM in use. Books seem to be headed the same way at Amazon. First physical books, then books as digital downloads with either no DRM or easily defeatable DRM. When e-books were new the technology was such that consumers needed to know about data formats, as with music downloads. Now with Kindle Unlimited and KFX we are reaching a stage much like music streaming. Going forward you will purchase a reading experience without the expectation of dealing with data formats or DRM. I believe that most consumers are fine with this because of the convenience for reading now and a lack of concern over long-term access. It is becoming the new norm. Most people have better things to do with their time than micro-manage a digital music or e-book library. There will be a minority, myself included, who will buck the trend and hold on to tangible media despite the extra work involved. (And I agree this thread topic has nothing to do with Kindle development.)