Drop caps and poetry

[Jellby]

The problem with using text as dropcaps is that the exact metrics depend on the font, which you can't control unless you use embedded fonts (for both the drop cap and the surrounding text). You may get something more predictable adding "line-height:1" to the drop cap, at that would make its size line-height-independent.

[RbnJrg]

Originally Posted by AlexBell

Thanks for your suggestion. I have now read the material, but am not at all sure what it means, nor what each part of it does. I do my ebooks in XHTML 1.1 and CSS2, which probably explains why I don't understand your material.

You have to solve two problems and not one For that reason you wrote:

...and don't understand why the red extends two lines or so _below_ the drop cap - nor what is probably more important, how to stop the background colour of the dropcap from extending below the dropcap.

The first problem is to position (properly) a grey (red) square; the second problem is to position the drop cap inside that square (of that way you won't have the issue of the color extended for two lines). You can do that (only with css2) of the following way:

p {
    text-indent: 0;
    text-align: justify;
}

/* Style to set the grey square */
.DropSpace {
    float: left;
    font-size: 3em;
    width: 1em;
    height: 1em;
    background: grey;
    padding: 5px;
    margin: -0.0em 5px -0.2em 0;
}

/* Style to fit the DropCap inside the grey square */
.DropCap {
    display: block;
    position: relative;
    top: -0.15em;
    left: -0.06em;
    font-size: 1.4em;
    font-weight: bold;
    font-family: sans-serif;
    width: 0.8em;
    height: 0.8em;
    text-align: center;
}

And in the .xhtml file:

<p><span class="DropSpace"><span class="DropCap">B</span></span>ehind the walls of Augustine,<br />
  he notes the seven traits of plants<br />
  and how their combinations<br />
  tell us that what was shall surely be<br />
  again. He writes of <i>dominance</i><br />
  and <i>recession</i>, of the patterns</p>

This is how it looks in ADE (with different font sizes):



Below I attach the respective epub.

Regards
Rubén

[AlexBell]

Originally Posted by Notjohn

I checked Seamus Heaney, Robert Frost, and William Shakespeare, none of whom have drop-caps in their poetry, at least not in the books on my shelf. Couldn't you persuade your client to throw in his lot with them? They are not entirely without reputation.

What an excellent idea! It makes so much sense.

But no, this is 'modern poetry', and the publisher and editor very much want to see the author's formatting preserved.

I've focused on this particular poem because the dropcap is driving me frantic, but there are other poems with equally bizarre effects - including subscripts as an integral part of the poetry.

[AlexBell]

Originally Posted by RbnJrg

You have to solve two problems and not one For that reason you wrote:



The first problem is to position (properly) a grey (red) square; the second problem is to position the drop cap inside that square (of that way you won't have the issue of the color extended for two lines). You can do that (only with css2) of the following way:

p {
    text-indent: 0;
    text-align: justify;
}

/* Style to set the grey square */
.DropSpace {
    float: left;
    font-size: 3em;
    width: 1em;
    height: 1em;
    background: grey;
    padding: 5px;
    margin: -0.0em 5px -0.2em 0;
}

/* Style to fit the DropCap inside the grey square */
.DropCap {
    display: block;
    position: relative;
    top: -0.15em;
    left: -0.06em;
    font-size: 1.4em;
    font-weight: bold;
    font-family: sans-serif;
    width: 0.8em;
    height: 0.8em;
    text-align: center;
}

And in the .xhtml file:

<p><span class="DropSpace"><span class="DropCap">B</span></span>ehind the walls of Augustine,<br />
  he notes the seven traits of plants<br />
  and how their combinations<br />
  tell us that what was shall surely be<br />
  again. He writes of <i>dominance</i><br />
  and <i>recession</i>, of the patterns</p>

This is how it looks in ADE (with different font sizes):

Attachment 145099 Attachment 145100

Below I attach the respective epub.

Regards
Rubén

Bless you! that looks great, and to be exactly what I want.

[AlexBell]

Originally Posted by Jellby

The problem with using text as dropcaps is that the exact metrics depend on the font, which you can't control unless you use embedded fonts (for both the drop cap and the surrounding text). You may get something more predictable adding "line-height:1" to the drop cap, at that would make its size line-height-independent.

Something else I hadn't thought of. Thanks again

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by AlexBell

Something else I hadn't thought of. Thanks again

Alex, dear boy (male, right? You're not Alexandra, are you?),

Don't we have this discussion every few months? You take on some daft project for someone who won't "give in" on the formatting, even though it literally CANNOT be done the way that they want?

I love Rube, but that formatting is going to go straight to hell the moment someone with Coolreader opens it. And it won't survive the Kindle process, either, for KF7, I don't think. Or KF8, given the line-height requirement.

I am fairly sure I've said this here before: we tend to decline poetry if we feel that the client isn't familiar with eReaders, and doesn't understand the limitations (compared to print) or the superior capabilities (ditto). Trying to create that poetry, without doing FXL...why, oh, why, are you torturing yourself this way?

I hope you are at LEAST charging the earth. This is utterly daft if you're doing it on the cheap. I admire your determination--I truly do--but...what will you do when they come back complaining because it's pooched on an Android Tablet? Or on a Kobo? Not even yet DISCUSSING Amazon?

Hitch

[AlexBell]

Originally Posted by Hitch

Alex, dear boy (male, right? You're not Alexandra, are you?),

Don't we have this discussion every few months? You take on some daft project for someone who won't "give in" on the formatting, even though it literally CANNOT be done the way that they want?

I love Rube, but that formatting is going to go straight to hell the moment someone with Coolreader opens it. And it won't survive the Kindle process, either, for KF7, I don't think. Or KF8, given the line-height requirement.

I am fairly sure I've said this here before: we tend to decline poetry if we feel that the client isn't familiar with eReaders, and doesn't understand the limitations (compared to print) or the superior capabilities (ditto). Trying to create that poetry, without doing FXL...why, oh, why, are you torturing yourself this way?

I hope you are at LEAST charging the earth. This is utterly daft if you're doing it on the cheap. I admire your determination--I truly do--but...what will you do when they come back complaining because it's pooched on an Android Tablet? Or on a Kobo? Not even yet DISCUSSING Amazon?

Hitch

Thanks, Hitch

Yes, I'm male - Alexander Frank John.

And yes, we have had this discussion before. I guess I'm too softhearted for my own good. But I have told the publisher and editor that two of the poems can't be made to work, and suggested that they withdraw those two or consider seeing if a professional could do them. I don't suppose you'd be interested?

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by AlexBell

and suggested that they withdraw those two or consider seeing if a professional could do them. I don't suppose you'd be interested?

The problem isn't your lack of knowledge and experience. It's that it's impossible with the current formats and rendering devices to get a satisfactory result.

The root of the problem is that there's no way to specify the size of the drop cap in terms of the leading applied to the body text.

Amazon apparently fiddle this in their new KFX format, but they probably do it in a device-specific way.

Until Amazon/ePub specs allow an explicit way to define drop caps, and sufficient devices have adopted the new system, there's no satisfactory way to do drop caps.

[RbnJrg]

Originally Posted by Hitch

I love Ruben, but that formatting is going to go straight to hell the moment someone with Coolreader opens it. And it won't survive the Kindle process, either, for KF7, I don't think. Or KF8, given the line-height requirement.

Hitch

Hi Hitch;

Happy New Year Yes, you are right, but in CoolReader nothing works, since it doesn't support "float" and many others css2 properties. Regarding Kindle, well, that's an interesting case. Sometime ago (about two years) I spent a lot of time trying to find a way to get a perfect drop cap with any Kindle device (e-ink or Fire models), with any font size, with any font family (with Kindle e-inks you have six fonts to choose). I wanted something consistently displayed, regardless of device used. Could that be possible? After lots of trial and error, I found the only way to get that target was with an image, so I decided to employ a SVG image. With the following code you can get a perfect drop cap for all Kindle models (forget for the moment KF7):

/* Style to set the grey square */
.KDropSpace {
    float: left;
    font-size: 4.6em;
    width: 1em;
    height: 1em;
    background: grey;
    padding: 5px;
    margin: 0 5px -0.1em 0;
}

/* Style to fit the DropCap inside the grey square */
.KSVGDropCap {
    display: block;
    position: relative;
    top: 0em;
    left: 0.05em;
    font-size: 1.2em;
    font-weight: bold;
    font-family: sans-serif;
    width: 0.8em;
    height: 0.8em;
    text-align: center;
}

/* Styles for old Kindle models */
@media not amzn-mobi {
.NotKF8 {
    display: none;
}
}

And in the .xhtml file:

<h1>SVG Drop Cap for Kindle</h1>

  <p><span class="KDropSpace"><img alt="B" class="KSVGDropCap" src="../Images/B.svg" /></span><span class="NotKF8"><b>B</b></span>ehind the walls of Augustine,<br />
  he notes the seven traits of plants<br />
  and how their combinations<br />
  tell us that what was shall surely be<br />
  again. He writes of <i>dominance</i><br />
  and <i>recession</i>, of the patterns</p>

These are screenshots of Kindle Previewer for all Kindle models:



Below you can check the respective epub, with the SVG image for the letter "B". Regarding KF7, you know, we can't get there drop caps, so I displayed the first letter as bold.

Regards
Rubén

[Notjohn]

I admire the devotion that created the style, but I prefer the DX version myself.

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by RbnJrg

Hi Hitch;

Happy New Year Yes, you are right, but in CoolReader nothing works, since it doesn't support "float" and many others css2 properties. Regarding Kindle, well, that's an interesting case. Sometime ago (about two years) I spent a lot of time trying to find a way to get a perfect drop cap with any Kindle device (e-ink or Fire models), with any font size, with any font family (with Kindle e-inks you have six fonts to choose). I wanted something consistently displayed, regardless of device used. Could that be possible? After lots of trial and error, I found the only way to get that target was with an image, so I decided to employ a SVG image. With the following code you can get a perfect drop cap for all Kindle models (forget for the moment KF7):

<snip>
Below you can check the respective epub, with the SVG image for the letter "B". Regarding KF7, you know, we can't get there drop caps, so I displayed the first letter as bold.

Regards
Rubén

Rubén:

As I said, I respect you and I'm enormously fond of you. I too admire the devotion and time you put into this. Something is rubbing up against the back of my head on this--I can't remember now what it is. Dammit. But there's something about using an imaged-drop-cap that doesn't work just so. I'll keep thinking. (Maybe in a few days--allegedly, I'm off work today!)

Nonetheless: awesome coding.

Hitch

[AlexBell]

Just to let people know: after checking the results on a Kindle the editor decided she didn't want drop caps after all. Now for the next problems.

The very much appreciated help people gave me hasn't been wasted; one of these days I'll do drop caps in one of my ePubs for the MR library.

[RbnJrg]

Originally Posted by AlexBell

Just to let people know: after checking the results on a Kindle the editor decided she didn't want drop caps after all. Now for the next problems.

By chance, did you read/try the code of this post:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...3&postcount=24

Because that is code you must use for Kindle models (my previous code was for ADE). The drop caps for Kindle must be based on SVG images in order to get a consistent display, regardless of device used.

Regards

[Hitch]

Originally Posted by AlexBell

Just to let people know: after checking the results on a Kindle the editor decided she didn't want drop caps after all. Now for the next problems.

'Tis ever thus, is it not? Always the way.

The very much appreciated help people gave me hasn't been wasted; one of these days I'll do drop caps in one of my ePubs for the MR library.

Everyone here is simply the best. Period.

Hitch

[AlexBell]

Originally Posted by RbnJrg

By chance, did you read/try the code of this post:

https://www.mobileread.com/forums/sho...3&postcount=24

Because that is code you must use for Kindle models (my previous code was for ADE). The drop caps for Kindle must be based on SVG images in order to get a consistent display, regardless of device used.

Regards

That's very impressive. One of these fine days if I ever need to do drop caps in Kindle I'll try to understand it. Thanks again for all your work and willingness to help.