Closure of Account - Access to digital content

[pdurrant]

No, I'll chase again. Thanks for the reminder.

[pdurrant]

My replies are now bouncing, so I've resorted to another email to the jeff@amazon.com address.

Spoiler:

Dear Mr Bezos,

I wrote to you on 6th November this year with a question, and received a reply from your Amazon Executive Customer Relations saying that they would look into it and get back to me in a couple of days. After a week I chased it up, to make sure I hadn’t missed an email, and was told that an update would be sent as soon as a response was received from the internal enquiry.

I tried chasing it up again today, after a month, but the emails just bounced - I assume that the response email address has expired.

I know that we’re now in the holiday season, and so I don’t expect to hear anything before the new year, but I would still like an answer - positive or negative - to my original question (original message copied below, along with other correspondence.

Wishing you a very Merry Christmas,

Paul Durrant

====== ORIGINAL QUERY, sent 6th November 2015 ======

Dear Mr Bezos,

Back in 2012 there was the widely reported case of a Norwegian woman whose account was closed by Amazon, and who said she lost access to her previously purchased Kindle ebooks. See, for example, this report in The Guardian: http://www.theguardian.com/money/201...eletes-account

I was very pleased at the time when Amazon quickly moved to make things right, and released a statement (added as an update to the above article) "We would like to clarify our policy on this topic. Account status should not affect any customer's ability to access their library. If any customer has trouble accessing their content, he or she should contact customer service for help.”


A friend recently received a warning email about the number of returns they had made on their Amazon account, and was deeply worried about what would happen to their Kindle library (& their other digital content) if their Amazon account did get closed. As they weren’t reassured when I pointed out Amazon’s 2012 statement, I thought I would ask customer service to confirm that even if their account was closed by Amazon, they would still retain access to their Kindle library and other digital content.

I was rather surprised to be told that "At this time, I'd like to confirm that if your account is closed for any reason, it is true that you will lose access to your purchased Digital content.”

I asked for clarification, since the reply didn’t address the conflict between this statement and Amazon’s 2012 statement. After a couple more attempts to clarify that I was asking about forced account closure, and about the 2012 statement, I was told "Once your account is closed […] the following will no longer be available to you: […] * your Kindle library” and "We won't be able to provide further assistance for your request.”

I am distressed to find this disparity between Amazon’s public statement when there was a fuss in the media, and the response from customer service.

I would be most grateful to be told explicitly whether or not Amazon’s 2012 statement is still true.

Yours sincerely,

Paul Durrant
(Amazon customer since 1999)

====== FIRST RESPONSE, received 11th November 2015 ======

Dear Mr Durrant

My name is Heather and I work within Amazon Executive Customer Relations.

Thank you for contacting the office of the Managing Director.

We received your recent e-mail and are investigating your comments. I will aim to update you within 1-2 business days.

Thank you for your patience.



Heather Lyons
Executive Customer Relations
Amazon.co.uk

====== MY REPLY, sent 18th November 2015 ======

Dear Ms Lyons,

Just checking in with you in case I missed an email from you. But I’d much rather have a definitive answer than a quick answer, so I’m truly not intending to nag.

regards,

Paul Durrant

====== SECOND RESPONSE, sent 19 November, 2015 ======

Dear Mr Durrant

My name is Heather Lyons and I work within Amazon Executive Customer Relations.

Sorry for the delay in responding to you. I have chased this issue for you again today.

I will aim to update you as soon as I receive a response to my enquiries from the relevant team.

Thank you for your patience.



Heather Lyons
Executive Customer Relations
Amazon.co.uk

====== FURTHER REPLIES, 20th December 2015, bounced with this response: ======

Hello,

Our Customer Service department didn't receive the e-mail message below. If you still need help, please visit one of the pages below so we can quickly provide you with additional information or give assistance via e-mail or phone.

Your Account provides quick access to open and completed orders and other account information.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/your-account

Use the Help search to quickly find the information you need.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/help

Copy the message below into our contact form to send us an e-mail. If you'd rather talk to us on the phone, select "Phone".

http://www.amazon.co.uk/contact-us

We look forward to hearing from you.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------To: "resolution-uk+A1VWITLSRKIVJP@amazon.co.uk" <resolution-uk+A1VWITLSRKIVJP@amazon.co.uk>
From: Paul Durrant <paul@durrant.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Your Correspondence with Mr Christhoper North
Dear Ms Lyons,

Just checking in with you again, in case I missed an email from you.

I realise that we are now into the holiday season, and it’s unlikely that you’ll have an answer before sometime in the New Year - I’m now on holiday myself until the 4th January.

Season’s Greetings to you.

regards,

Paul Durrant

[pdurrant]

I have now received a response and sent another reply.

From Amazon:

Spoiler:

Dear Mr Durrant,

My name is Heather Lyons and I work within Amazon Executive Customer Relations.

Please be advised our legal team are still working on a response in relation to your query. I have chased this issue again for you today. In this case I will follow up with you personally in early January.

Thank you for your patience and understanding in relation to this.



Heather Lyons
Executive Customer Relations
Amazon.co.uk

My reply:

Spoiler:

Dear Ms Lyons,

Thank you again. I am most grateful for your efforts to obtain an answer to my question.

I do realise that although apparently simple, there are probably complications in any potential answer that your legal team will want to explore fully. I look forward to hearing from you in the New Year.

I do hope you have a Merry Christmas,

Yours,

Paul Durrant

[pdurrant]

I'm pleased that they seem to be putting real thought into this answer. I do wonder whether my question hasn't prompted them to fully consider the question for the first time. (Rather than just reacting to bad publicity, which seems to have been all that happened in 2012.)

[Yolina]

Or maybe they were hoping you'd have forgotten all about it by now

[Barbara1955]

I think they are wondering IF they should Close your account... Like they told Josieb they would do just cause she asked. Why else would they need Lawyers to answer a simple question?

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Katie1

I think they are wondering IF they should Close your account... Like they told Josieb they would do just cause she asked. Why else would they need Lawyers to answer a simple question?

I do not recall Josieb1 claiming that Amazon threatened to close her account for asking questions. As I recall, they warned her that she was returning things too frequently.


And corporate statements always require lawyers, no matter how simple the question.
It is one of those indisputable truths, similar to "the sky is blue in the daytime", "two plus two equals four", and "the moon is NOT made of green cheese".

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

And corporate statements always require lawyers, no matter how simple the question.
It is one of those indisputable truths, similar to "the sky is blue in the daytime", "two plus two equals four", and "the moon is NOT made of green cheese".

I am not at all surprised that they have lawyers looking into the answer. What I am asking, although apparently a simple yes/no question, requires them to actually have a proper policy in place about digital media and account closures.

If they had already had such a policy in place, I think I would have had a quick answer. My guess is that they are now formulating their policy.

[Barbara1955]

hum so what was it False promises to defuse bad publicity a few years ago?

[pdurrant]

Originally Posted by Katie1

hum so what was it False promises to defuse bad publicity a few years ago?

I don't know. Presumably that statement was also passed by the lawyers, so I doubt that it was completely false.

It seems to me that it should be possible for Amazon to be able to just turn off someone's ordering ability on an account, if they don't want that person's future business. I hope that that's the solution they come up with.

But whatever they tell me, I'm glad that they seem to be taking it seriously.

[Cinisajoy]

I know they turned off one person's ability to return ebooks. She was returning at least 75% by her own admission.
On Josieb,
They sent her a warning letter to watch her returns or they would close her account. By her own admission she had gotten the same letter the year before.

So I expect they are looking into giving Paul a detailed answer because there are varying circumstances.

[jackie_w]

Originally Posted by Cinisajoy

... because there are varying circumstances.

Maybe I lack the imagination, so can you give some examples of 'varying circumstances' where it should be considered ethically and legally OK for any company to remove access to digital items already legally purchased?

[badgoodDeb]

Don't we really just "rent" these things? Or the right to use them for a period of time??

[Cinisajoy]

Originally Posted by jackie_w

Maybe I lack the imagination, so can you give some examples of 'varying circumstances' where it should be considered ethically and legally OK for any company to remove access to digital items already legally purchased?

What I meant by varying circumstances was specifically one woman had her digital returns blocked and another was told if she kept returning items her account would be closed.
So there are different alternatives. I said nothing about removing access to already owned items.
Look since we are honestly only buying licenses not the actual item, I am not sure how they should work.

Personal opinion if one is that worried about their digital items, they should either not buy from a place that might one day close or as it has been said many times, make backup copies.

[jackie_w]

Originally Posted by badgoodDeb

Or the right to use them for a period of time??

Do you mean that the small print states that digital access has a finite lifespan? I wasn't aware of that. Nor do I remember reading that they are allowed to reduce that finite time (by an unspecified amount) if I return (an unspecified amount of) goods which are entirely unrelated.