Amazon's vertical integration/monopoly

[dickloraine]

I don't quite understand, how a distribution format from a vendor prohibits the production of eBooks. You know, amazon doesn't write the books themselves. They just transform a source format to their format. And since the format is not open, books aren't produced in it. But in docx, html, txt, epub. Maybe it would be worse if you needed to write in it, because then most ebooks would be written in it.? But then it could be easily converted.

On the consumer side you could be right, but before speaking about kfx, we then need to first speak about drm, because why speak about a closed format, if you aren't allowed to do anything with it apart from reading regardless.?

[darryl]

@notimp. Whilst you have not said certain things, certain things are implied from your post. Amazon has a vertical monopoly in relation to its own new proprietary format? So what, You have singled out Amazon, but all of the major ebook retailers have walled gardens. The issues that you have raised, somewhat incoherently, in this thread, have been discussed many times both on Mobileread and widely elsewhere, yet you claim they are new and raised by the kfx format. Amazon does not have a new ecosystem, just the same one it has always had. It has a new format, and it remains to be seen what it will do with it. In the here and now I can remove drm from any of my Amazon purchases. The .kfx format has not inconvenienced me in the least. I find it amazing that you claim you are not arguing about something that may happen in the future. Do you also take the view that all epub books with Adobe DRM cannot have it removed? Following your logic, you should, since Adobe has its new format in place ready to go.

It is you who referred to unspecified discussions in German academia, not I. Yet the term you used, industrialisation of distribution formats is, by itself, an imprecise one and hardly new.

Your argument seems to be essentially the "special snowflake" argument presented by Douglas Preston and Authors United which was so thoroughly and entertainingly debunked by Joe Konrath and others. Far from being a new un-debated issue (outside of German academis) raised by the kfx format it is probably one of the most discussed issues in the ebook world.

As I said, it was you who mentioned German Academia. I don't particularly care where you live and don't particularly want to know anything about you. The attack is not a personal one. It is an attack on your argument, such as it is. To understand this I suggest that a quick google of "Authors United" followed by a visit to Joe Konrath's blog would be very educational for you, though perhaps frustrating.

Finally, some questions for you? What do you believe Governments, in particular the US government, should be doing to solve the problems you perceive? And do you believe that the European approach including fixed ebook prices is the best one?

[dickloraine]

What is more troublesome than the format, is how attractive it is to publish on amazon. If self published authors make 90% of their money on amazon, it makes sense for them to go exclusive with amazon. But that means, it becomes increasingly difficult to compete in that market with amazon, if you have nothing to sell.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by dickloraine

What is more troublesome than the format, is how attractive it is to publish on amazon. If self published authors make 90% of their money on amazon, it makes sense for them to go exclusive with amazon. But that means, it becomes increasingly difficult to compete in that market with amazon, if you have nothing to sell.

I agree. I don't want Amazon to be the only game in town. Right now I can buy their exclusive titles and convert and read them on any device I choose. I am concerned about both .kfx and the new Adobe drm. But I do get sick of the Amazon is the devil crowd and the scare-mongering that goes on. We certainly don't have a big problem in the short term, and likely not even in the medium term. But it is certainly a concern that in the longer term we may eventually face a situation where ebook drm is effective, with the resultant loss of freedom that entails. Hopefully that will then result in an increased incentive for hackers to break the formats/drm concerned, which of course is what has happened in the past.

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by darryl

But it is certainly a concern that in the longer term we may eventually face a situation where ebook drm is effective, with the resultant loss of freedom that entails.

It's only a "loss of freedom" if you no longer have access to your books. How many people are bothered about DRM on DVDs? I suspect very few, because the DRM on DVDs doesn't stop you from playing your DVDs. Provided that I can read my books on a wide range of device, I'm really not bothered about DRM, and Amazon's policy appears to be to permit me to read my books on as wide a range of device as possible.

[elborak]

Originally Posted by HarryT

How many people are bothered about DRM on DVDs? I suspect very few, because the DRM on DVDs doesn't stop you from playing your DVDs.

That's probably true for 95%+ of DVD consumers. There were, however, a lot of complaints from the remainder for the 2 or so years between the introduction of the format and the release of DeCSS.

[issybird]

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[knc1]

Originally Posted by notimp

- - - - -
I dont take it personal (in fact I am looking at the issue from a somewhat professional standing) -
- - - - -

Please define your: "somewhat professional standing".

Knowing your profession might bring a better understanding of your debating style.

[darryl]

Originally Posted by HarryT

It's only a "loss of freedom" if you no longer have access to your books. How many people are bothered about DRM on DVDs? I suspect very few, because the DRM on DVDs doesn't stop you from playing your DVDs. Provided that I can read my books on a wide range of device, I'm really not bothered about DRM, and Amazon's policy appears to be to permit me to read my books on as wide a range of device as possible.

You are right in that most people do not care about drm and will likely not do so unless they are very directly affected by it. And Amazon is fairly sensible about things with applications for Android, IOS and PC giving plenty of options to read your books. And the apps are fairly good ones. But of course, what Apprentice Alf gives us is the ability to read our purchased books on non-Amazon devices and the ability to future proof our books and keep them safe from any future less benign policies. There is no point in us repeating a discussion here on the evils and/or potential evils of drm, which have been done to death. I do think, however, that the simple criterion of mere access to our books leaves a lot to be desired so far as "freedom" is concerned. Because whilst there is effective drm, it is the seller who has the power to determine the terms of that access and its limitations. I am of the view that this is a power which should belong to the purchaser, or, if you prefer, to the licensee, or to the person obtaining the rights under whatever legal structure is adopted.

[Rizla]

Originally Posted by notimp

Please dont shut it down, as soon as the personal attacks start rolling in. Its so much easier to shut down a debate than to allow it to take place.

Thou shalt not criticize Amazon.

[johnnyb]

Originally Posted by Rizla

Thou shalt not criticize Amazon.

On Mobileread

[HarryT]

Criticise who you like, but please put forward well-written and reasoned arguments, not interminable "stream of consciousness" rants. The former will result in discussion, but the latter won't.

[dickloraine]

Originally Posted by darryl

I agree. I don't want Amazon to be the only game in town. Right now I can buy their exclusive titles and convert and read them on any device I choose. I am concerned about both .kfx and the new Adobe drm. But I do get sick of the Amazon is the devil crowd and the scare-mongering that goes on. We certainly don't have a big problem in the short term, and likely not even in the medium term. But it is certainly a concern that in the longer term we may eventually face a situation where ebook drm is effective, with the resultant loss of freedom that entails. Hopefully that will then result in an increased incentive for hackers to break the formats/drm concerned, which of course is what has happened in the past.

One faint hope is, that there will be a backslash to all these walled gardens some time. I kind of understand it regarding apps for example, not from a walled garden view, but because of hardware, compiling etc. Music for example has no drm, partly I think because people like to own it, collect it and want to have access to it, regardless if the vendor gets out of business or whatever. I like to think that books are similar. Not for the people HarryT always mentions, but for many many booklovers. I still have hundreds of books.

With the coming of digital products, there was a loss of consumer rights. It was/is new, and companies lobbied for special rules and since it was a niche market, politicians had no clue etc. they got their will. It is sad, but hopefully consumer rights will evolve. I just have still the impression, that politicians (at least in germany) don't know much about this strange thing called internet, apart from that they need to have a facebook page and a twitter account to appeal to the "young people".

[notimp]

Two addendums to the darryl quote above.

Besides calling idealists scaremongerers (we are on the internet, so you shoot down idealism with the usual labels ("those unpaid freaks")) -

- promoting that everything has to be fine in the mid term future must be unbridled optimism, because from a realists point of view, the only thing that still stands between Amazon and total lockdown is "legacy device support" and whatever selfimposed made up ideological constructs get cycled between management, marketing and a public. I dont know - the self believe, that Amazon didnt just destroy the cultural landscape? The format is done, and distributed - the process is in place and it is self-energising (autodelivery to all current Kindles) - so lets talk scenarios, when .kfx has reached critical mass.

This is the mid term scenario. Is it not?


The outs for some positivists in here are, that Amazon might still allow access to legacy formated books through some obscure channels - but from my perspective, those dont count, because that in no way is compatible with the mainstream (25 easy steps to still get an eBook you'd "own") or even a culture that you would attribute to books in general.

Its a glorified hacker myth for people who want to ignore that Amazon entirely controls the viability of this approach as well. Managed counterculture at best.

Also - this doesnt solve the format exclusivity and production monopoly part of the equation. New books. Current books. Better books - with those features Amazon sells customers into their walled garden with, no one outside of Amazon will ever be allowed to create. From now on. In the new reality.

This is one of those lines I have to repeat multiple times, until they get universally recognized - because the discussion in here never took place. Blogs weren't selling those facts.

And if the current format is cracked, Amazon releases a patch a few days after.

We dont know the format. Its easy, we dont even need to know it. We have the old ones. So .kfx might be open one day, and closed again, the day after - because the format (congruence, stability, compatibility) doesnt mean anything anymore to anyone but Amazon. There is no stake in it - from any social peer group. When consumers and publishers hardly get to know fileformats anymore, they vanish.

As a hypothetical. What if the fileformat (container) is ever changing - compatibility ("for the new version to work you need at least, ...") gets dropped every third firmware release - but hey, there are new features!

Who really cares at that stage? Blogs will report format changes as security updates and no one in here will even find the need to talk about what this means for "books", because - its Amazons format, we dont need to know it, they can do with it what they want. Hey, the hyphenantion exclusive was celebrated instead. Thank you - Amazon.


So what is the difference between the two points of view in here?

One says - as long as the whole thing somewhat and somehow still works - we shouldnt bother too much.

The other says - if there is no silver lining on the future development of the ecosystem -- cry foul, make sure you rattle perceptions, and promote leaving the sinking ship. For the sake of OUR books (that goes for readers, publishers and writers), not Amazons.

Its the viable perspective that is missing.

We all know that many people wont even move as much as a finger as long as a system somehow is still workable.

*Buh!* That was me scaring you into action - by some other debaters account.

[knc1]

The Kindle e-book readers display many more formats than those produced or provided by Amazon.

Amazon's vertical intergration business model isn't exclusive to Amazon.

So what if its the: