Kindle Paperwhite 2-Voyage Software Update 5.6.5 - Page 17

cerem0ny · 08-19-2015, 12:04 PM

Oopsies! Well... wow! There it is! Amazons magnificent kerning live and in the flesh! Don't i feel like a dumbass lols. Well spotted, kind sir.

[Inappropriate language DELETED - MODERATOR]

I have a sneaky suspicion that that You is probably the whole extent of Amazons character placement, word size and kerning improvements though

shalym · 08-19-2015, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cerem0ny

Oopsies! Well... wow! There it is! Amazons magnificent kerning live and in the flesh! Don't i feel like a dumbass lols. Well spotted, kind sir. Can you see any more?

[Inappropriate language DELETED - MODERATOR]

I have a sneaky suspicion that that You is probably the whole extent of Amazons character placement, word size and kerning improvements though

Here's some screenshots that I just took from my Voyage. The first one has an example of the "ly" combination and the second has the "fi". I'm not sure on the kerning--I really can't see that well enough, although it looks as if the tail of the y might be underneath the l to me. The f and the i are definitely connected, though, which shows ligatures, right?

Shari

DuckieTigger · 08-19-2015, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shalym

Here's some screenshots that I just took from my Voyage. The first one has an example of the "ly" combination and the second has the "fi". I'm not sure on the kerning--I really can't see that well enough, although it looks as if the tail of the y might be underneath the l to me. The f and the i are definitely connected, though, which shows ligatures, right?

Shari

You have example for both. The LY is a kerning case as the letters simply get closer together when kerning is activated. Kerning is really really hard to see unless you overlay (or have side by side) a kerned and non kerned version of the same font. The FI is a ligature - the letters will get so close that they literally touch. Theoretically if the rendering of ligatures is sophisticated enough, then the shape of the letters may also change in a ligature. On the Voyage the ligatures are both - really really close in the case of FT (e.g. in "after") almost touching, and then in the case of FI (e.g. in "first") the shape will change as well - at least with the serif fonts.

MrKaon · 08-22-2015, 05:15 AM

I've downloaded the update and will update my Voyage soon but wandering why it didn't update itself while it was connected to wifi?

HarryT · 08-22-2015, 05:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrKaon

I've downloaded the update and will update my Voyage soon but wandering why it didn't update itself while it was connected to wifi?

The over-the-air update is rolled out to devices over the course of several months. Everyone doesn't get it at the same time.

paipa · 08-22-2015, 06:04 AM

I'm convinced there is no new typesetting engine whatsoever.

Amazon simply re-processed some of their books, added soft-hyphens, replaced certain letter pairs with unicode ligature symbols and that's it. Even kerning must be hard-coded into them somehow because side-loaded books, regardless of format (AZW3 or MOBI) don't show any signs of kerning with Bookerly. No, the o is not tucked under Y in "You". Maybe it is for some Amazon books, but not for side-loaded documents. Same ugly letter spacing as it has always been.

So the mysterious "typesetting engine" isn't on the device itself. It's a phantasm, it doesn't exist. All of it is done on Amazon's side, and you can get it for some books you've bought.

Having said that, at least someone can make a Ligaturize plugin for Calibre now, replacing letter pairs with Unicode ligature symbols, as your Kindle at least finally has a concept of them now and will display them. I just tried it out and it works. So if you're willing to mess around with plugins like Hyphenate This and a yet-to-be-written ligaturizer, kerning will remain the only thing that your sideloaded books won't have. Which is, honestly, still baffling to me given how trivial it is, but we'll survive.

Bottom line is, Amazon didn't do crap. A bunch of interns ran some scripts on a couple of thousand books. That's their new typesetting engine for you.

HarryT · 08-22-2015, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paipa

So the mysterious "typesetting engine" isn't on the device itself. It's a phantasm, it doesn't exist. All of it is done on Amazon's side, and you can get it for some books you've bought.

The facts do not support your assertion. There is a new file format being delivered to the Kindle, with a "kfx" file extension and new content formatting within the file. Clearly there must be a new rendering engine on the device to support this new format.

paipa · 08-22-2015, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

The facts do not support your assertion. There is a new file format being delivered to the Kindle, with a "kfx" file extension and new content formatting within the file. Clearly there must be a new rendering engine on the device to support this new format.

Which is why I believe there is no proper typesetting engine on the device, just fancy new documents with embedded typesetting information that a dumb renderer can put on screen in a nice way.

If typesetting was done locally, you could give it any plain old mobi, or hell, even txt file and the Kindle would be able to put it on screen just as well. The fact that the Kindle is only able to hyphenate these new documents is a telltale sign that they just filled them with soft-hyphens themselves. Can't wait for someone to inspect this new format and confirm it.

HarryT · 08-22-2015, 07:03 AM

If you're saying that the actual work on typesetting is done elsewhere (by the "kfxgen" tool that's presumably used to create kfx files) and that the Kindle simply contains a rendering engine, then yes, I agree with you, and that's the sensible way to do it. Typesetting takes a great deal of processing power (as you'll know if you've used a tool such as LaTex), and it makes sense to do it offline rather than slow down the Kindle by doing it locally.

paipa · 08-22-2015, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

If you're saying that the actual work on typesetting is done elsewhere (by the "kfxgen" tool that's presumably used to create kfx files) and that the Kindle simply contains a rendering engine, then yes, I agree with you, and that's the sensible way to do it. Typesetting takes a great deal of processing power (as you'll know if you've used a tool such as LaTex), and it makes sense to do it offline rather than slow down the Kindle by doing it locally.

Fair point.

Although, does it really take that much power? I can soft-hyphenate War and Peace in a matter of seconds on my computer, so even on a Kindle it's likely to be much less work than indexing it, which is an overhead we are used to. Ligature replacement is trivial and has a computational cost as close to zero as it gets. Kerning is also very light on processing power. If a Kobo can do it fine then so should a Kindle.

What I find frustrating is that these are all simple things and there's just no reason Amazon shouldn't have solved these long ago. We're not talking about LaTeX-like typesetting capabilities here. Single page single column static text is the lowest of the low hanging fruit.

jackie_w · 08-22-2015, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

... and it makes sense to do it offline rather than slow down the Kindle by doing it locally.

Why? The Adobe epub renderer found on epub eink readers seems to manage well enough with on-the-fly hyphenation, ligatures and kerning (assuming the font being used actually contains ligatures and kerning).

HarryT · 08-22-2015, 08:06 AM

A better question to ask would be "why not?". Maximising the rendering speed by taking layout calculations offline makes sense. You know, I'm sure, that a common complaint of Kobo users is slow page turns.

jackie_w · 08-22-2015, 09:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

A better question to ask would be "why not?". Maximising the rendering speed by taking layout calculations offline makes sense. You know, I'm sure, that a common complaint of Kobo users is slow page turns.

Why not? Well, having all the bells & whistles available to all sideloaded books, not just official-store-bought books, would be reason enough for me - but that's obviously a personal opinion.

As for 'slow page turns' - I agree it's a common complaint by some vocal individuals, but I've also never really understood why a sub-second page turn is considered 'problematic'. It's faster than I can read. Maybe I'm just a slow reader

I believe the Kobo kepub renderer (non-Adobe) manages fast page turns coupled with on-the-fly hyphenation and certain types of kerning (not ligatures, currently). This also works for all sideloaded content, so decent typography features are not limited to Adobe software. I don't think the kepub typography is as polished as Adobe though. I guess it's taken Adobe quite a long time to get this far.

John F · 08-22-2015, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

A better question to ask would be "why not?". Maximising the rendering speed by taking layout calculations offline makes sense. You know, I'm sure, that a common complaint of Kobo users is slow page turns.

How is this going to work with all the books in the MR library? Does emailing an epub to your Kindle now add in the new typesetting features?

HarryT · 08-22-2015, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John F

How is this going to work with all the books in the MR library? Does emailing an epub to your Kindle now add in the new typesetting features?

No. It's currently only available for certain books bought from Amazon. Not for sideloaded books or personal documents.

08-19-2015, 12:04 PM	#241
cerem0ny Evangelist Posts: 449 Karma: 3059202 Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Australia Device: Kobo Libra Colour, Kindle Scribe 2024	Oopsies! Well... wow! There it is! Amazons magnificent kerning live and in the flesh! Don't i feel like a dumbass lols. Well spotted, kind sir. [Inappropriate language DELETED - MODERATOR] I have a sneaky suspicion that that You is probably the whole extent of Amazons character placement, word size and kerning improvements though Last edited by Dr. Drib; 08-19-2015 at 05:12 PM.

08-22-2015, 06:04 AM	#246
paipa Member Posts: 12 Karma: 10 Join Date: Nov 2013 Device: Kindle Paperwhite 2	I'm convinced there is no new typesetting engine whatsoever. Amazon simply re-processed some of their books, added soft-hyphens, replaced certain letter pairs with unicode ligature symbols and that's it. Even kerning must be hard-coded into them somehow because side-loaded books, regardless of format (AZW3 or MOBI) don't show any signs of kerning with Bookerly. No, the o is not tucked under Y in "You". Maybe it is for some Amazon books, but not for side-loaded documents. Same ugly letter spacing as it has always been. So the mysterious "typesetting engine" isn't on the device itself. It's a phantasm, it doesn't exist. All of it is done on Amazon's side, and you can get it for some books you've bought. Having said that, at least someone can make a Ligaturize plugin for Calibre now, replacing letter pairs with Unicode ligature symbols, as your Kindle at least finally has a concept of them now and will display them. I just tried it out and it works. So if you're willing to mess around with plugins like Hyphenate This and a yet-to-be-written ligaturizer, kerning will remain the only thing that your sideloaded books won't have. Which is, honestly, still baffling to me given how trivial it is, but we'll survive. Bottom line is, Amazon didn't do crap. A bunch of interns ran some scripts on a couple of thousand books. That's their new typesetting engine for you. Last edited by paipa; 08-22-2015 at 06:10 AM.

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08-22-2015, 05:15 AM	#244
MrKaon Member Posts: 18 Karma: 500 Join Date: Aug 2015 Device: KV, PW5	I've downloaded the update and will update my Voyage soon but wandering why it didn't update itself while it was connected to wifi?

08-22-2015, 07:03 AM	#249
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,557 Karma: 93980341 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	If you're saying that the actual work on typesetting is done elsewhere (by the "kfxgen" tool that's presumably used to create kfx files) and that the Kindle simply contains a rendering engine, then yes, I agree with you, and that's the sensible way to do it. Typesetting takes a great deal of processing power (as you'll know if you've used a tool such as LaTex), and it makes sense to do it offline rather than slow down the Kindle by doing it locally.

08-22-2015, 08:06 AM	#252
HarryT eBook Enthusiast Posts: 85,557 Karma: 93980341 Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: UK Device: Kindle Oasis 2, iPad Pro 10.5", iPhone 6	A better question to ask would be "why not?". Maximising the rendering speed by taking layout calculations offline makes sense. You know, I'm sure, that a common complaint of Kobo users is slow page turns.