B&N What Went Wrong & When ?

[Apache]

Originally Posted by barryem

I read an article on one of the ebook blogs today saying that B&N's most profitable area in it's stores these days are toys and some other related items. Maybe they'll transition into a toystore.

I haven't been in a bookstore for years. I moved to rural Arkansas 11 years ago and I don't have a car so I don't have one available. I had no idea they sold toys in the B&N stores now. I don't recall them there when I lived in Houston and I was in them a lot.

Barry

Originally Posted by cromag

The Barnes & Noble in our town added the toy section a few years ago, when they downsized the CD and DVD area. I think they also took some of the area that was devoted to kids' books. I generally get in there once or twice a year, after Christmas and in July, during their clearance sales. I used to go every couple of weeks.

I have not been in a B&N in years. The closest is 90 miles away. We do have a Books A Million and they are more toys and clothing than books. They actually cut their fiction selection to add toys and clothing. And last month they downsized all of the fiction categories even more. Science Fiction and Fantasy are now on the wall that used to display Westerns. And if you know how much Western Books were displayed you would know how small Science Fiction and Fantasy has become.
Apache

[Phogg]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I think the music streaming battle is instructive. The two biggest issues that music streaming companies have is getting the multitude of rights holders to allow them to stream the music and getting the price down to a level where they can make money.

Nah.
Not really.
The issue is that streaming sites are are barebones and not equipped to ballance information delivery with music delivery.
I guess you could assert that coding them better would cost them more money. On the other hand it would get them the rights cheaper.
The streaming business just doesn't have any high end players.

[murg]

Originally Posted by Apache

We do have a Books A Million and they are more toys and clothing than books. They actually cut their fiction selection to add toys and clothing. And last month they downsized all of the fiction categories even more. Science Fiction and Fantasy are now on the wall that used to display Westerns. And if you know how much Western Books were displayed you would know how small Science Fiction and Fantasy has become.
Apache

So what you are saying, is that Books A Million is becoming Books A Thousand...

[cgsmom]

Originally Posted by AnemicOak

Amazon did the same thing way back when before Kindle too (2000-2006).


While I won't go so far as to say it won't ever happen again the user base for Nook is much greater than any eBook user base was way back when so I'd say it's much less likely that Nook would simply end without B&N doing at least something. Maybe it'd be transferring stuff to Kobo like Sony & Borders did. Maybe it would be selling off the Nook accounts to some other store that doesn't even exist yet (for example if Walmart expanded Vudu to include books).

I am glad to hear that I am not the only one who was let down by Amazon back then. I started reading ebooks around 2004 using a PDA with Microsoft Reader. I bought books from Amazon and other places in LIT format. When Microsoft exited the market, Fictionwise and Simon/Schuster allowed me to download my books in epub format. Amazon did not. My ebooks disappeared and emails went unanswered. I held a grudge against Amazon for a long time. In all fairness, I didn't lose any books because I knew the value of backing up purchases even then. However, I didn't like the way Amazon handled it.

I was loyal to BN for a long time. But now I think it is obvious that they are not the best choice for ebooks. When Target recently had iPads on sale, I bought one and I have put my HD+ aside for good. I still use my NST, but when that dies, I will get a Kindle.

It is really a shame that BN didn't do a better job. Competition is always good.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

I really don't think that not have DRM would move the needle for them. Most customers don't care one way or the other about DRM. The music industry went through that experiment when they allowed Amazon to sell DRM free music a year before they let Apple do the same.

My point was that by doing so, you could buy e-books from Barnes and Noble whether you owned a Nook or any other reader. That would give Android and iOS reader apps without their own stores an incentive to link to B&N.

Using your example, we can all buy MP3s from Amazon, Apple or Google and play them anywhere. That's good for the customer and good for the sale of music.

It would be nice to see e-books follow that route. In theory, B&N is still a big enough player that they could lead the charge, become the disruptor in the e-book world.

[pwalker8]

There is already a nook app on iOS and android. I'm pretty sure that you won't see one for any of the various versions of the Kindle (regular kindle or fire).

I just don't think that you will see many people change their buying habits. People still buy music from the iTunes store by a fairly substantial percentage. Having DRM verse not having DRM really didn't move the needle much.

The big issue with cross platform ebooks is the ease of getting books from the store to the reader. It doesn't get any easier than the kindle and Amazon model, and until a store is able to provide the same level of ease regardless of the platform, that store will have a tough time competing.

[pwalker8]

Originally Posted by Phogg

Nah.
Not really.
The issue is that streaming sites are are barebones and not equipped to ballance information delivery with music delivery.
I guess you could assert that coding them better would cost them more money. On the other hand it would get them the rights cheaper.
The streaming business just doesn't have any high end players.

Certainly they do now with Apple. But Apple went to a lot of trouble lining up the various labels (including indies) so they would have most of the music that people might want to listen to. We should see over the next couple of months how successful Apple is in that regard.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by balance information delivery with music delivery though.

[Phogg]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

Certainly they do now with Apple. But Apple went to a lot of trouble lining up the various labels (including indies) so they would have most of the music that people might want to listen to. We should see over the next couple of months how successful Apple is in that regard.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean by balance information delivery with music delivery though.

Were it my music, I would want to limit the amount of times within a short period my songs could be replayed.

Someone who wants to listen to it that much is a prime candidate to be persuaded to purchase it (even if it's a thirty cent or buck and a quarter song) and I want to limit replay for free within a short period. However, I also want to make sure that every single time it is played cold the listener has every opportunity to learn which song it was. They can't buy it if they don't know what it was and who I am.

So, (if it's me) I want a streaming service to automatically produce a time indexed copy of the playlist a streaming client listened to and archive those lists for a modest period in a way that is easily accessed by the listener.

That way if they later remember that they heard some cool song when they were at the gym on Tuesday they can look up what it was.

These are computer generated services. The information is there of necessity.
It is marketing incompetence not to use it properly.

I would never consider a service not doing this as an asset to marketing my material.

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by pwalker8

The big issue with cross platform ebooks is the ease of getting books from the store to the reader. It doesn't get any easier than the kindle and Amazon model, and until a store is able to provide the same level of ease regardless of the platform, that store will have a tough time competing.

There you go dumping your harsh cold reality on my pastel colored fantasy land!

Still though, if B&N can't compete with Amazon on ease of use, selling 'cross platform' e-books might be something to look into.

Trumpeting that the books are DRM free probably wouldn't increase their sales. I wonder what the drop in e-book sales has been since B&N changed their DRM last September-ish?

[conan50]

It is almost sad what they have done to their physical stores. A couple of years ago the main store entrance took you to CDs and DVDs--another soon to be dead medium. CDs and DVDs will never save them. Then about a year ago I noticed the entire downstairs was CDs & DVDs and toys, seemed a sort of gift shop feeling. You had to go upstairs to find books. Just pathetic. I don't think they have any better future for their brick and mortar stores than their ebook store, even if they are making some money still at the stores.
It would not take much to keep a web site going, and there has to be at least one smart person B&N could hire to save their ebook business. They made some smart moves in the past, they put Google Play on their tablets, a bit too late, but smart nonetheless. The nook HD still has one of the best screens on a low price tablet, and I think they could have sold the Simple Touch into the next century. I honestly think they have a better chance saving their ebook business than their physical stores, but the clock is ticking.

[darryl]

B&N is a lost cause. I can't think of anything that would revive their fortunes right now short of Amazon imploding, and even in that incredibly unlikely situation I have my doubts based on their past performance. Amazon are by no means perfect, but, love them or hate them, at the moment they provide a great customer experience for most. And they are always trying new things and looking for ways to improve.

[barryem]

What's happening is really kind of interesting. I keep reading articles that come just short of predicting the end of B&N and other articles talking about independent bookstores coming back and thriving. A few years ago I read predictions that ebooks would replace or all but replace paper books.

Now, if what seems to be the present pattern continues, it looks like it might be the end of the super giant bookstores, the ones who put the neighborhood bookstores out of business. Of course it's too soon to predict this and I hope it doesn't happen. As much as I've always loved the little bookstores it was the big bookstores that were the most fun to browse in.

I don't get to browse in any of them anymore, unfortunately, and I miss them.

When I first retired, maybe 18 or 19 years ago, I spent a lot of days in B&N and Borders, sitting in their easy chairs, reading their books, drinking their coffee, day after day. It was great fun. I wonder if people in the future will get a chance to do that.

Barry

[fjtorres]

Originally Posted by darryl

B&N is a lost cause. I can't think of anything that would revive their fortunes right now short of Amazon imploding, and even in that incredibly unlikely situation I have my doubts based on their past performance. Amazon are by no means perfect, but, love them or hate them, at the moment they provide a great customer experience for most. And they are always trying new things and looking for ways to improve.

B&N customer experiences:

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/retail/barnes_noble.html

[ZodWallop]

Originally Posted by conan50

It is almost sad what they have done to their physical stores. A couple of years ago the main store entrance took you to CDs and DVDs--another soon to be dead medium. CDs and DVDs will never save them. Then about a year ago I noticed the entire downstairs was CDs & DVDs and toys, seemed a sort of gift shop feeling. You had to go upstairs to find books. Just pathetic.

I feel for them. In the end, they have to stock what sells. If books were flying off the shelves and mugs were collecting dust, the gift section would shrink and the book section would grow.

[charmian]

I wonder why non-book items at B&N are selling better than they have in the past (I assume that they must be selling well, otherwise they wouldn't stock them). Perhaps B&N's clientele has changed.

Anyway I find it doubtful that Google would buy Nook rather than trying to make their own store more appealing, say by launching their own subscription service. They don't seem to be into e-ink hardware.