Windows 10 - free upgrade to those with PC using Windows 7 or 8

[Glorfindel]

Hey! It works for me

[HarryT]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I would argue that a smartphone or tablet has far more similarity to a PC than to an embedded microcontroller ( where did you pull that ridiculous comparison from, if you want to talk about "disingenuous")... or even a single-use embedded system.

Don't you own a Surface tablet? Is that an embedded device, just because it uses a mobile form factor?
What, precisely, is your inscrutable determining factor between "general-purpose OS" and "dedicated, invisible-to-the-user"?
Because it sounds like your definition of "embedded device" refers more to user knowledge than device design; I could easily make the case that a Windows 8 desktop rig is an embedded device according to what you just said. G-d knows, a lot of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

I separate the two by asking the question "does the user need to know what operating system the device is running in order to make effective use of it?" For a Kindle eInk reader or a washing machine the answer is "no"; I doubt that 1 in 100 Kindle owners know that it runs Linux, and that even fewer give a damn. For a PC, the answer is "yes"; you need to know what o/s it's running to make effective use of it.

[Teknikal]

Free these days makes me paranoid it's going to start popping up adverts or start nagging you to buy Microsoft credits for extra features or something.

Yeah I know it won't as it would be suicidal for Microsoft but I'm still not going to be one of the first ones who updates until I know fully what their getting from it.

I'll add I was originally a Windows 8 hater who stayed away from it for years but it's actually grown on me quite a bit now I have it, I was even toying with the idea of a windows tablet not too long ago.

[murg]

Originally Posted by Teknikal

Free these days makes me paranoid it's going to start popping up adverts or start nagging you to buy Microsoft credits for extra features or something.

Yeah I know it won't as it would be suicidal for Microsoft but I'm still not going to be one of the first ones who updates until I know fully what their getting from it.

I'll add I was originally a Windows 8 hater who stayed away from it for years but it's actually grown on me quite a bit now I have it, I was even toying with the idea of a windows tablet not too long ago.

Microsoft is actually pretty good about not installing crap without your knowledge.

I wish Google and Adobe and pretty much everyone else had that level of consideration for their customers.

Oh, and please, can we skip all the usual comments related to the fact that I used the words Microsoft and crap in the same sentence. What is this, Middle School?

Originally Posted by ApK

Someone with more than my Hello World experience with Linux and Android dev can correct me if I'm wrong, but a book on Linux development won't help any with Android development.

Yes and no. If you're using the NDK, you have access to more conventional "Linux" development tools. It is something that Google discourages, but it has been used to port many open source libraries.

More to the point: the end user can download a terminal emulator from the Google Play store, tell it to establish a local connection, and have access to the Unix shell. I'm not going to claim that it is identical to a conventional Linux desktop shell (it usually uses busybox rather than the GNU utilities), yet a Linux user will find the layout of the non-Android specific parts of the system familiar.

[Glorfindel]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

I would argue that a smartphone or tablet has far more similarity to a PC than to an embedded microcontroller ( where did you pull that ridiculous comparison from, if you want to talk about "disingenuous")... or even a single-use embedded system.
Don't you own a Surface tablet? Is that an embedded device, just because it uses a mobile form factor?
What, precisely, is your inscrutable determining factor between "general-purpose OS" and "dedicated, invisible-to-the-user"?
Because it sounds like your definition of "embedded device" refers more to user knowledge than device design; I could easily make the case that a Windows 8 desktop rig is an embedded device according to what you just said. G-d knows, a lot of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Define 'Windows 8 desktop rig'. While most users may not be able to tell you what version of 7 they have, I have yet to meet someone who didn't know Windows 8 when they saw it.
Also, 'a smartphone or tablet' is far too broad a term to be using here; no one would argue that a Nexus running Ubuntu Touch was running linux. Nor would anyone claim that a Lumia with Windows Phone 8 was a linux device.

[Glorfindel]

Beta testers get RTM version free from MS.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by ApK

A book on Windows will guide you effectively on many aspects of using a Surface tablet.
A book on Linux will guide on using a PC running just about any distro of Linux.
A book on Linux will do exactly squat in guiding you to use an Android device. Or a Kindle. Or a washing machine.
Someone with more than my Hello World experience with Linux and Android dev can correct me if I'm wrong, but a book on Linux development won't help any with Android development.
Because using Android is not using Linux in any more a meaningful sense than using a Kindle is.
Not sure why you're being obstinate on this point. I suspect you, like most others reading, understand the distinction perfectly well.

A book on linux will not necessarily teach you how to use any distro. e.g. Ubuntu is very different from, say, Arch Linux or Gentoo. Or for that matter, ChromeOS, unless you feel that too is not "real linux"?

IN fact, ChromeOS is an excellent comparison, because it certainly does not resemble your average linux desktop very much at all... but it is based on Ubuntu, with a stripped-down user interface.


As BWinmill points out, an experienced linux user will feel right at home on an Android device, as soon as thy install a shell prompt.
People can do some pretty interesting things once there... including using a chroot to run a linux distro with a package manager.

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by HarryT

I separate the two by asking the question "does the user need to know what operating system the device is running in order to make effective use of it?" For a Kindle eInk reader or a washing machine the answer is "no"; I doubt that 1 in 100 Kindle owners know that it runs Linux, and that even fewer give a damn. For a PC, the answer is "yes"; you need to know what o/s it's running to make effective use of it.

Oh, excellent, it appears we secretly agreed all along.
So that must mean Android is a general-purpose OS.


And I am thus left wondering why you brought in a random comparison to a washing machine or other embedded microcontroller. Again, remind me: who is the disingenuous one, here?

[eschwartz]

Originally Posted by Glorfindel

Define 'Windows 8 desktop rig'. While most users may not be able to tell you what version of 7 they have, I have yet to meet someone who didn't know Windows 8 when they saw it.

That insinuation was based off HarryT's seeming implication that "general-purpose OS" is one where the user needs to know what he is using in order to use it properly -- I insinuated right back that most people don't know how to use Windows and whatever knowledge they may have that "this is Windows" certainly isn't helping them use it any more effectively.

Also, 'a smartphone or tablet' is far too broad a term to be using here; no one would argue that a Nexus running Ubuntu Touch was running linux. Nor would anyone claim that a Lumia with Windows Phone 8 was a linux device.

You are simply being ridiculous now.

• I have been claiming that Android is meaningfully linux. What does that have to do with a device that is running Ubuntu rather than Android? Please stop being orthogonal.
• I did not suggest Windows devices are really linux devices, I merely asked, if HarryT's inscrutable standards for "general-purpose OS" seem to be specifically excluding mobile devices, surely that must mean mobile devices running Windows 8 are also not a "general-purpose OS".

Originally Posted by eschwartz

And I am thus left wondering why you brought in a random comparison to a washing machine or other embedded microcontroller. Again, remind me: who is the disingenuous one, here?

On top of that, very few developers woild classify a smartphone as an embedded device (nevermind a tablet). Even if you consider Android to be a distinct OS, they inherit too many of the properties of a general purpose computer to be classified as anything but a general purpose computer.

Ereaders are a bit trickier to classify. I suspect the locked down devices, such as those from Amazon and Sony, should be firmly classified as embedded devices. Kobo's should probably be classified in the same way, but I am a bit uncomfortable with that since a modified configuration file gives you access to the device that behaves as a general purpose computer.

[ApK]

Duplicate post.

[ApK]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

As BWinmill points out, an experienced linux user will feel right at home on an Android device, as soon as thy install a shell prompt.

They can do that on a Kindle as well . So you tell US: why do YOU
then not put Ereader users in the same category?

[eschwartz]

Possibly because it is much more common to do things of that general nature on an Android... which in turn is probably because Android is not inherently aggressive towards attempts to do so...

Because Android is a general multipurpose platform, typically installed on general multipurpose devices.
I don't consider a Kindle to be not-a-general-purpose-os because it is unable to be used as one, I consider it so because it is dedicated to a specific task.

Android, being a general multipurpose device, then qualifies as a general multipurpose linux OS since it can and is used as such.

[shalym]

Originally Posted by eschwartz

Possibly because it is much more common to do things of that general nature on an Android... which in turn is probably because Android is not inherently aggressive towards attempts to do so...

Because Android is a general multipurpose platform, typically installed on general multipurpose devices.
I don't consider a Kindle to be not-a-general-purpose-os because it is unable to be used as one, I consider it so because it is dedicated to a specific task.

Android, being a general multipurpose device, then qualifies as a general multipurpose linux OS since it can and is used as such.

Ok...so since people can (and do) install a shell prompt and use it on their Android phones, then we can say that all of the Android phones can be considered as running Linux, right? Let's step back a bit, and say that all Android (and MacOS, incidentally) systems are running Unix, since someone used to Unix would feel at home in a Linux shell prompt. So we've established that all non-Windows systems are running Unix, right? (Although, I'm not sure about iOS--can you install a shell prompt and use Unix/Linux commands on that once it's jailbroken?)

Shari