Loaning and exchanging e-books - is this legal? - Page 2

Elfwreck · 12-12-2008, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JSWolf

The problem with selling an eBook is that yes, I can take some eBooks I own, put them on CD, sell them, and not have a single copy on my computer. But guess what? I can log back onto say Fictionwise or BooksOnBoard and download them all over again. Nothing to stop me from doing that.

Nothing stops you from taking a hard-copy book you have, and using your home print/scan/copy device to make an extra copy of it & give that away, either. Ability to do something is not the same as the activity itself.

Yes, it's *easy* to acquire unauthorized copies of digital material. (I believe this is a feature, not a bug, but that's a separate issue.) However, that ease doesn't remove one's basic right to choose how to use a legitimate copy.

I'm aware that "share with another person" is against some TOS's of ebook creators--I'm just pointing out that it's not a violation of copyright law to do so.

daviddem · 12-12-2008, 02:54 PM

Well, it seems reasonable to bring fair usage into it. But then, if it is fair that I can loan or give or sell a copyrighted pBook to somebody, it also seems fair to me that I should be able to do the same with my copyrighted eBook, as long as I don't make a copy of it (copyright, yes?). If not, I should pay far less for an eBook than for a paper book, considering that 1) there is no cost of printing, distributing, paper, ink, workmanship, etc other than a negligible amount of storage, bandwidth and website maintenance 2) the eBook has no resale value and 3) I have less rights than I do with a pBook (can't loan, can't give, can't exchange, etc)

HarryT · 12-13-2008, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daviddem

Well, it seems reasonable to bring fair usage into it. But then, if it is fair that I can loan or give or sell a copyrighted pBook to somebody, it also seems fair to me that I should be able to do the same with my copyrighted eBook, as long as I don't make a copy of it (copyright, yes?).

How do you propose to give someone an eBook WITHOUT making a copy of it? The very act of digital data transmission inherently involves a copy being created. Even if you subsequently delete your "original", the other person still has the "copy".

Elsi · 12-13-2008, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daviddem

Well, it seems reasonable to bring fair usage into it. But then, if it is fair that I can loan or give or sell a copyrighted pBook to somebody, it also seems fair to me that I should be able to do the same with my copyrighted eBook, as long as I don't make a copy of it (copyright, yes?).

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

How do you propose to give someone an eBook WITHOUT making a copy of it? The very act of digital data transmission inherently involves a copy being created. Even if you subsequently delete your "original", the other person still has the "copy".

Hence my observation that it's safe to lend an eBook by lending the device with the eBook loaded onto it. (Consider the Algonquin Hotel lending Kindles to its guests.) I believe that would be considered legal in any court. I also believe it would be acceptable to the EULAs from various sellers.

This argument falls apart when it comes to *selling* the device, however. There really isn't any way to have a second-hand market for electronic media. (Not just eBooks, but tunes and videos as well.)

Elfwreck · 12-13-2008, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

How do you propose to give someone an eBook WITHOUT making a copy of it? The very act of digital data transmission inherently involves a copy being created. Even if you subsequently delete your "original", the other person still has the "copy".

Download the original to a flash drive; loan out the flash drive at will. Which I admit is somewhat ridiculous, but is certainly possible for most ebooks. Depending on the filetype, it may or may not make a copy to read it.

Andurian · 12-13-2008, 04:57 PM

"There really isn't any way to have a second-hand market for electronic media."

Whoever controls the DRM could do so, I think. You might be able to keep the book for yourself if they can't scan the reader, but they could require you to agree to delete the book and you'd be breaking the law to not do so.

If the law and/or ethics isn't the constraint here, there is no constraint. Most DRM can be circumvented, after all.

It won't happen, though. Its easier and more profitable for them to extend the oppressiveness of the current copyright/DRM/DMCA system and take away our right of resale.

Steven Lyle Jordan · 12-13-2008, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Elsi

There really isn't any way to have a second-hand market for electronic media. (Not just eBooks, but tunes and videos as well.)

In the same way that reselling items like books involves a transfer of a physical object, electronic media can be resold by establishing a transfer of license from user to user. Of course, to enforce that, DRM needs to be brought into play.

You can circumvent the DRM issue by tying the electronic media to a physical storage container that will not allow clean copying (such as movie DVDs provide). Then they can be resold, refunded, or traded at will.

Andybaby · 12-13-2008, 08:43 PM

this is my only problem with Ebooks.
because ebooks dont allow for them to be traded/sold/given away. then the price of the book should be reduced.

they would make more money because
1. There is no After Market, after a pbook is bought once, all those Second hand book sellers make money but the publishers dont. this is whats bringing down the video game producers, gamestop charging 90% for a used copy and the publishers make Ziltch. Gamestop makes more money selling Used games than new ones.
2. more people would be able to justify a $3-5 dollar Purchase of a book, than say a $10 purchase, and especially more than the $15-25 dollar purchase of a hard cover.

slayda · 12-13-2008, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HarryT

How do you propose to give someone an eBook WITHOUT making a copy of it? The very act of digital data transmission inherently involves a copy being created. Even if you subsequently delete your "original", the other person still has the "copy".

Actually Harry, there is a way (physically - not necessarily legally). When you download the ebook originally, you could download it directly to a memory card & then give that memory card to someone thus not having made a second copy.

Of course one could argue that viewing that ebook on any device (most probably) would store a temporary copy in the RAM of that device (if wanted to pick nits).

ficbot · 12-13-2008, 09:10 PM

So, if (in the scenario I outlined with my sister) she stores all her ebooks on a flash card, I could remove the flash card from her device, pop it into mine and this is perfectly legal even now?

I still say the uses I outlined would fall under fair use. It just has not been tested in court yet because it's difficult to prove and has not yet been worth the bother. And I still say that the threat of 'piracy' is vastly inflated in the publishers minds to what it really is.

daviddem · 12-13-2008, 09:20 PM

I would be so glad if I could pay the author his royalties directly. It is beyond me that at this stage of the game, authors and artists have not yet set up their own cooperatives for distributing their work electronically. The cooperative itself would be non-profit, it would charge just enough for its own subsistence (including of course the salaries of its employees). That would do away with the publishers and other intermediaries, who not only add to the cost of the final product, but also take away a substantial part of the profit of the authors. There are also many known instances of publishers ripping off their authors.

I think this could work, because 1) the cost of the final product would be reduced, 2) it would generate sympathy among the public and 3) it would be a good deterrent against piracy (or social DRM, whatever you want to call it) because it would create a more direct relationship between the authors and the customer

jabberwock_11 · 12-14-2008, 12:01 AM

It seems to me that eBooks are a special kind of monster. I was trying to approach the situation as I would a video game rather than the way I would look at the same situation with a pbook. You would not think that making copies of a video game is legal, so the same can be said of an eBook, but you can sell the whole video game because you do not keep the disc needed to play the game once it is sold (unless you make an illegal copy). The same is not so of an eBook, because you usually do keep a copy or are easily able to redownload a copy at no cost.

The question for publishers becomes how do you allow readers pass on an eBook to someone else who is interested without being able to keep a copy or get new copies at zero cost? Obviously eBooks can not be looked at in the same way as pbooks, but they are still going to be compared...the use of multiple registered devices for eBooks to be downloaded onto seems to be the only logical solution, but it is still not perfect.

Does anyone have any suggestions that do not involve blatantly disregarding the fact that eBooks are not the same creatures as pbooks and can not be dealt with in the same manner?

I ask because I am struggling with the whole idea and go back and forth on the morals of the situation on an almost daily basis...

HarryT · 12-14-2008, 03:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andybaby

this is my only problem with Ebooks.
because ebooks dont allow for them to be traded/sold/given away. then the price of the book should be reduced.

Do you routinely sell your books after you read them? What percentage of the price of the original do you typically get by doing so?

slayda · 12-14-2008, 10:25 AM

To add another perspective,thing of how easy it is to get rid of an ebook after your done with it. (done with it by whatever definition you personally choose.) With a pbook you might sell it but most probably don't. If it is good enough to give to someone you know, it's probably good enough to keep - thus taking up space in your home.

You might trash it, helping to fill the land fill and further polute the environment. It could sit on your sheves for years and when you next open it, you could find that termites had eaten most of it. Etc., etc., etc.

With an ebook you just delete it & it's gone. No mess, no fuss. So look at the bright side of ebooks.

ficbot · 12-14-2008, 10:49 AM

Actually, I quite often sell p-books (or did until I started buying e-books---now, the only p-books I buy are cookbooks and fitness books, and those I keep). I simply did not have the space to store so many p-books.

I typically would buy them at the used bookstore, who sold them for half off the cover price. So, let's take as an example 'The Memory Keeper's Daughter' by Kim Edwards, which is one I scouted out at the used bookstore then came home and bought in E:

Amazon.ca price is $11.52, so half off that is $5.76
I would pay the $5.76, read it and sell it back for half of what they sold it to me for
So I would get back about $2-3 depending on how in demand the book is
This makes my net cost about $3 and I have nothing to 'keep' except the memory

Now, some e-comparing:

Fictionwise club price is $11.90
Assume I buy it on sale for at least 25% off or in rebate (I always buy FW stuff on sale)
So maybe I pay $6-8 for it
Same net outlay of money for me
I don't get the $3 back
But I get to keep the book

So, what would be a fair e-price? I guess if one is not relying on sales as I am (and if Fictionwise ever becomes stingier than they are now with the sales) then I would want a price that nets me s similar mathematical conclusion. I am happy to 'eat' the $3 as it were because I am keeping the book. I am not so concerned about transferability because I buy e-books for, among other reasons, the virtue of keeping them since storage space is not an issue. I would rather it be assumed you can't transfer them, and hence I don't need to worry about restrictive DRM, then have every e-book wrapped up in ten layers of DRM just so you can 'transfer' it to someone else.

So, bottom line for me is, they need to make the price AT MAXIMUM 30% off the list price (50% off is fairer, but 30% would be my bottom line) for the math to work out for me, should the current gravy train of promo codes and sale prices end. I am okay with things right now because I buy 100% of my ebooks during either massive sales, or 100% micropay deals where I am okay with paying full price for something because I know I'll be earning a huge credit to buy other things.

12-14-2008, 12:01 AM	#27
jabberwock_11 Addict Posts: 231 Karma: 1591305 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Savannah, GA USA Device: Kindle Paperwhite 2, Aluratek Libre Pro	It seems to me that eBooks are a special kind of monster. I was trying to approach the situation as I would a video game rather than the way I would look at the same situation with a pbook. You would not think that making copies of a video game is legal, so the same can be said of an eBook, but you can sell the whole video game because you do not keep the disc needed to play the game once it is sold (unless you make an illegal copy). The same is not so of an eBook, because you usually do keep a copy or are easily able to redownload a copy at no cost. The question for publishers becomes how do you allow readers pass on an eBook to someone else who is interested without being able to keep a copy or get new copies at zero cost? Obviously eBooks can not be looked at in the same way as pbooks, but they are still going to be compared...the use of multiple registered devices for eBooks to be downloaded onto seems to be the only logical solution, but it is still not perfect. Does anyone have any suggestions that do not involve blatantly disregarding the fact that eBooks are not the same creatures as pbooks and can not be dealt with in the same manner? I ask because I am struggling with the whole idea and go back and forth on the morals of the situation on an almost daily basis... Last edited by jabberwock_11; 12-14-2008 at 12:05 AM.

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12-12-2008, 02:54 PM	#17
daviddem Connoisseur Posts: 63 Karma: 244 Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Dubai Device: Sony PRS-T1	Well, it seems reasonable to bring fair usage into it. But then, if it is fair that I can loan or give or sell a copyrighted pBook to somebody, it also seems fair to me that I should be able to do the same with my copyrighted eBook, as long as I don't make a copy of it (copyright, yes?). If not, I should pay far less for an eBook than for a paper book, considering that 1) there is no cost of printing, distributing, paper, ink, workmanship, etc other than a negligible amount of storage, bandwidth and website maintenance 2) the eBook has no resale value and 3) I have less rights than I do with a pBook (can't loan, can't give, can't exchange, etc)

12-13-2008, 04:57 PM	#21
Andurian You really should try it! Posts: 57 Karma: 137 Join Date: Nov 2008 Device: PRS-500	"There really isn't any way to have a second-hand market for electronic media." Whoever controls the DRM could do so, I think. You might be able to keep the book for yourself if they can't scan the reader, but they could require you to agree to delete the book and you'd be breaking the law to not do so. If the law and/or ethics isn't the constraint here, there is no constraint. Most DRM can be circumvented, after all. It won't happen, though. Its easier and more profitable for them to extend the oppressiveness of the current copyright/DRM/DMCA system and take away our right of resale.

12-13-2008, 08:43 PM	#23
Andybaby Wizard Posts: 1,279 Karma: 1002683 Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: New York Device: PRS-700	this is my only problem with Ebooks. because ebooks dont allow for them to be traded/sold/given away. then the price of the book should be reduced. they would make more money because 1. There is no After Market, after a pbook is bought once, all those Second hand book sellers make money but the publishers dont. this is whats bringing down the video game producers, gamestop charging 90% for a used copy and the publishers make Ziltch. Gamestop makes more money selling Used games than new ones. 2. more people would be able to justify a $3-5 dollar Purchase of a book, than say a $10 purchase, and especially more than the $15-25 dollar purchase of a hard cover.

12-13-2008, 09:10 PM	#25
ficbot Wizard Posts: 2,409 Karma: 4132096 Join Date: Sep 2008 Device: Kindle Paperwhite/iOS Kindle App	So, if (in the scenario I outlined with my sister) she stores all her ebooks on a flash card, I could remove the flash card from her device, pop it into mine and this is perfectly legal even now? I still say the uses I outlined would fall under fair use. It just has not been tested in court yet because it's difficult to prove and has not yet been worth the bother. And I still say that the threat of 'piracy' is vastly inflated in the publishers minds to what it really is.

12-13-2008, 09:20 PM	#26
daviddem Connoisseur Posts: 63 Karma: 244 Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Dubai Device: Sony PRS-T1	I would be so glad if I could pay the author his royalties directly. It is beyond me that at this stage of the game, authors and artists have not yet set up their own cooperatives for distributing their work electronically. The cooperative itself would be non-profit, it would charge just enough for its own subsistence (including of course the salaries of its employees). That would do away with the publishers and other intermediaries, who not only add to the cost of the final product, but also take away a substantial part of the profit of the authors. There are also many known instances of publishers ripping off their authors. I think this could work, because 1) the cost of the final product would be reduced, 2) it would generate sympathy among the public and 3) it would be a good deterrent against piracy (or social DRM, whatever you want to call it) because it would create a more direct relationship between the authors and the customer

12-14-2008, 10:25 AM	#29
slayda Retired & reading more! Posts: 2,764 Karma: 1884247 Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: North Alabama, USA Device: Kindle 1, iPad Air 2, iPhone 6S+, Kobo Aura One	To add another perspective,thing of how easy it is to get rid of an ebook after your done with it. (done with it by whatever definition you personally choose.) With a pbook you might sell it but most probably don't. If it is good enough to give to someone you know, it's probably good enough to keep - thus taking up space in your home. You might trash it, helping to fill the land fill and further polute the environment. It could sit on your sheves for years and when you next open it, you could find that termites had eaten most of it. Etc., etc., etc. With an ebook you just delete it & it's gone. No mess, no fuss. So look at the bright side of ebooks.

12-14-2008, 10:49 AM	#30
ficbot Wizard Posts: 2,409 Karma: 4132096 Join Date: Sep 2008 Device: Kindle Paperwhite/iOS Kindle App	Actually, I quite often sell p-books (or did until I started buying e-books---now, the only p-books I buy are cookbooks and fitness books, and those I keep). I simply did not have the space to store so many p-books. I typically would buy them at the used bookstore, who sold them for half off the cover price. So, let's take as an example 'The Memory Keeper's Daughter' by Kim Edwards, which is one I scouted out at the used bookstore then came home and bought in E: Amazon.ca price is $11.52, so half off that is $5.76 I would pay the $5.76, read it and sell it back for half of what they sold it to me for So I would get back about $2-3 depending on how in demand the book is This makes my net cost about $3 and I have nothing to 'keep' except the memory Now, some e-comparing: Fictionwise club price is $11.90 Assume I buy it on sale for at least 25% off or in rebate (I always buy FW stuff on sale) So maybe I pay $6-8 for it Same net outlay of money for me I don't get the $3 back But I get to keep the book So, what would be a fair e-price? I guess if one is not relying on sales as I am (and if Fictionwise ever becomes stingier than they are now with the sales) then I would want a price that nets me s similar mathematical conclusion. I am happy to 'eat' the $3 as it were because I am keeping the book. I am not so concerned about transferability because I buy e-books for, among other reasons, the virtue of keeping them since storage space is not an issue. I would rather it be assumed you can't transfer them, and hence I don't need to worry about restrictive DRM, then have every e-book wrapped up in ten layers of DRM just so you can 'transfer' it to someone else. So, bottom line for me is, they need to make the price AT MAXIMUM 30% off the list price (50% off is fairer, but 30% would be my bottom line) for the math to work out for me, should the current gravy train of promo codes and sale prices end. I am okay with things right now because I buy 100% of my ebooks during either massive sales, or 100% micropay deals where I am okay with paying full price for something because I know I'll be earning a huge credit to buy other things.