Unutterably Silly The Countdown

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Quite possibly...



Ralph, the American public was rapidly warming to small and efficient cars in the 60s... lots of Americans were discovering the small European cars, like VW's Beetle, and realizing that not all vehicles had to span 2 zip codes. By the 70s, even the muscle cars were scaling down in size and getting better mileage, and though they weren't as powerful as before, were still selling.

They weren't muscle cars anymore. They were econoboxes with the old names attached (Madison Avenue???) The last real muscle car to die was the Trans-Am.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

But Detroit was being forced by clean air regulations to build ever-more-complicated cars and emissions systems, which meant a severe curtailing of their profit per car. At the same time, big car sales were actually dropping compared to sales of small cars, which were cheaper because Americans wouldn't accept more expensive smaller cars, but which cost them more to manufacture because of the emissions equipment. Detroit saw that their profit margins would never be the same again.

Detroit's solution was to take advantage of the fact that the EPA regs basically omitted trucks from its consideration, since they were (at the time) a noticeable minority of the vehicles on the road, especially in commuter's hands, and therefore considered not worth regulating. Detroit could build trucks at a lower cost, since they did not need the same emissions equipment. But how to sell America on trucks?

Solution: A massive Madison Avenue ad strategy that runs essentially unchanged today, presenting the rebranded "Sport Utility Vehicle" as the vehicle everyone needed... even before they knew they needed them. They did NOT present them as "Big, like your Daddy's car." You never carried coolers, canoes, TVs, barbeque grills, three kids, four dogs, footballs, soccerballs, frisbees, and every toy you owned in your daddy's car at one time. They presented them as sexy and fun and cool, and they even purposely appealed to America's interest in the environment by suggesting owners could take their trucks into the green mountains and across virgin streams, seeing the environment up-close. (And incidentally presenting the then-familiar MPG figures, if at all, in almost invisible fine print.)

And simply because they were bigger, and "bigger things always cost more," Detroit sold them for more, even as they built them for less, making even larger profits. Then they spread money throughout the government to make sure the EPA regs would not be rewritten to include trucks, and kill their gold-plated chicken disguised as a golden goose.

And they displaced the station wagon. Look at how many station wagon are made today. Maybe a mini-van is better, but with the exception of Chrysler (who came out with it) it was a lot cheaper and quicker to use existing tooling for trucks that make their own mini-vans.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

America does not "want" Big-Boat cars. Prior to the 60s and 70s, they wanted them because ALL cars were big... they didn't know anything else. Since then, they have been conned into thinking they still want big vehicles, by ad methods that have worked on industrialized America for over a century, and have sold Americans on everything from Tang to Pet Rocks to Underoos.

Every heard of the Nash Metopolitan? Early 1950's, made in the US, smaller than a WV bug. And it stiffed big time. A guy in my neighborhood in San Antonio, kept several as collectables.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

(This is not to say that no one in America needs a truck... but that the SUV, specifically, was a vehicle invented for the specific purpose of selling spiffed-up trucks by appealing to people's base emotions (be cool, get laid), and that the number of trucks sold over the past 30 years FAR, FAR outstrips the number of people who actually need a truck in America.)

Going to require a government license to buy one? The first SUV was built by GM (the Suburban) in 1935. Yep, 1935! It wasn't invented for the specific purpose of selling spiffed up trucks. It was for a truck big enough to pull a big trailer (or boat) at the same time it could seat six, which a pickup truck couldn't, so the family could go along. (And the only thing that might get laid in the SUV then was the horses being towed in the trailer being pulled...)

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I hate to put it this way (because it's so f****n' sad), but in the same way that Americans were convinced that they wanted trucks, Americans can just as easily be convinced that they really want small and efficient cars... if it is within the desire of Detroit, the U.S. Government, and the rest of the auto industry, to convince them so. Ad campaigns have proven their ability to sway the public many times over, if done creatively and with a careful consideration to influence the emotion of the consumer. Remember the Crying Indian? Remember Smoky the Bear? Does anyone 40 or above in America not remember them?

Hmmm.... By that standard Obama won because he outspent McCain 4 to 1 and had better ad men.

Steve, we look at the same facts and come to different conclusion. That's because we have different biases. Different biases don't bother me, what disturbs me is the underlying concept of "I'm right, (Ok so far) and the rest of the world needs to change it's ways to match mine." (that second part disturbs me.) And it particularlly disturbs me that when I mentions that, you blow a gasket.

Me, I'm a firm believer in voting with my feet. I live in an area that (generically) rather libertarian. Why can't I be left alone to go to hell my own way? I don't tell urbanites how to live....

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by DixieGal

Al and Tipper Gore?

Tipper might consider it pornographic...

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Steve, we look at the same facts and come to different conclusion. That's because we have different biases. Different biases don't bother me, what disturbs me is the underlying concept of "I'm right, (Ok so far) and the rest of the world needs to change it's ways to match mine." (that second part disturbs me.) And it particularlly disturbs me that when I mentions that, you blow a gasket.

Me, I'm a firm believer in voting with my feet. I live in an area that (generically) rather libertarian. Why can't I be left alone to go to hell my own way? I don't tell urbanites how to live....

Gee, Ralph .... I agree with almost nothing Steve Jordan has to say, but even I don't see where he blew a gasket. To me it just sounds like you two are having an interesting discussion. Am I missing something??

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Gee, Ralph .... I agree with almost nothing Steve Jordan has to say, but even I don't see where he blew a gasket. To me it just sounds like you two are having an interesting discussion. Am I missing something??

Some of our previous spirited discussions on copyright...

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Steve, we look at the same facts and come to different conclusion. That's because we have different biases. Different biases don't bother me, what disturbs me is the underlying concept of "I'm right, (Ok so far) and the rest of the world needs to change it's ways to match mine." (that second part disturbs me.) And it particularlly disturbs me that when I mentions that, you blow a gasket.

Me, I'm a firm believer in voting with my feet. I live in an area that (generically) rather libertarian. Why can't I be left alone to go to hell my own way?

I didn't blow a gasket. I stated my position, clearly and succinctly, and did not resort to personal attack or invective. If you call that "blowing a gasket," I can only suggest you avoid the average sports bar...

You may well view my statements as "I'm right, and everyone ought to do what I say." I understand that they can sound that way... since I firmly believe that the majority Americans need to change the bad habits that have given us so many of our current problems. This, for the record, includes me, and I am already taking steps to "walk the walk," so don't think I'm just ordering people around. I am also trying to set a good example.

And I understand your desire to keep "going to hell" your own way, and allowing everyone else to change. The only problem I see with that is, you are not the only person with that attitude. In fact, a sizeable number of Americans share it... and this is not a country of isolated individuals anymore. We can no longer afford to live as if we have no impact on the rest of the world.

Scientists and other authorities believe (as I do) that the vast majority of America needs to work together to solve those problems. How will America change, when you and roughly half of the rest of the country feel they don't need to participate?

I see this as an attitude that will only doom the country to continue to waste, to pollute, and to bribe and lie our way around it... until it all collapses around us. (Fancy that... GM comes immediately to mind.) That, frankly, concerns me. And I have heard nothing from your viewpoint that comforts me at all, so I am compelled to voice my concerns.

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

I don't tell urbanites how to live....

Dude: If you know of a way to live that you believe is beneficial to your fellow Americans, you are in exactly the right country, because you have the right to SAY SO. That's why we're here.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Gee, Ralph .... I agree with almost nothing Steve Jordan has to say...

I'm beginning to think there's something in the water in Texas...

[vivaldirules]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I'm beginning to think there's something in the water in Texas...

I'm with you, Steve (navels notwithstanding), and I drink bottled water. Correlation?

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

I'm with you, Steve (navels notwithstanding), and I drink bottled water. Correlation?

I think it's one of those "Purity of Essence" things.

Mandrake! Come over here and feed me that ammo clip!

[Slite]

Here in Sweden, everyone is talking about getting alternative fueled cars, the most popular models at the moment runs on E85 which is an Ethanol based fuel (I think).

when you buy an E85 environmental friendly car, you get a "tax-reduction" of around 1000 Euros, fine. And yes, the E85 costs less than gas per liter. Problem is that the price is NOT low enough, the E85 engine is not efficent enough, so you need 2 liters of E85 to get the same distance as you do from one liter of gas. So it ends up costing you more per kilometer than regular gas.

And most of those cars are equipped to use either E85 or regular gas, so most people end up filling them with gas anyway, cause it's cheaper in the end.

What we need are cheap/efficent fuel-cells, and we need them yesterday!

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I didn't blow a gasket. I stated my position, clearly and succinctly, and did not resort to personal attack or invective. If you call that "blowing a gasket," I can only suggest you avoid the average sports bar...

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I'm beginning to think there's something in the water in Texas...

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I think it's one of those "Purity of Essence" things.

Mandrake! Come over here and feed me that ammo clip!

Ummm...That's a belt, not a clip. Brownings only take a belt feed...

No personal attacks? Generic attacks OK?

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Ummm...That's a belt, not a clip. Brownings only take a belt feed...

Trust a Texan to know that!

Just kidding.

And I repeat, I'm not attacking anyone; I'm stating my opinion. And in my opinion, Americans have already suffered too much from the psychological attacks and manipulation of the auto and oil industries that cared more about their personal fortunes than the well-being of their fellow Americans (yes... even Texans!), and of their only planet. Not to mention the government leaders who accepted their bribes to let them get away with it.

That's why I'd actually feel better about Federalization of the auto industry, than I would about simply handing billions of dollars over to the same people who have been running the industry for the past 3 decades. I am firmly convinced that we would be significantly better off.

[Greg Anos]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Trust a Texan to know that!

Just kidding.

And I repeat, I'm not attacking anyone; I'm stating my opinion.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I think it's one of those "Purity of Essence" things.
Mandrake! Come over here and feed me that ammo clip!

That's a line from Dr. Strangelove about (and from) the insane General who sent the bombers under his control to nuke the USSR. So, are you implying all Texans are insane or just RSE? And why is that not a attack? Most people would not look favorably upon being implied to be insane. Just a joke? Then it's in the same class as a bully pushing a little kid into the mud for grins.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

And in my opinion, Americans have already suffered too much from the psychological attacks and manipulation of the auto and oil industries that cared more about their personal fortunes than the well-being of their fellow Americans (yes... even Texans!), and of their only planet. Not to mention the government leaders who accepted their bribes to let them get away with it.

Why is your opinion sacred? Why is it worth more than mine? This is the nub.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

That's why I'd actually feel better about Federalization of the auto industry, than I would about simply handing billions of dollars over to the same people who have been running the industry for the past 3 decades. I am firmly convinced that we would be significantly better off.

If you like the Post Office, you love a federalized car....

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

That's a line from Dr. Strangelove about (and from) the insane General who sent the bombers under his control to nuke the USSR. So, are you implying all Texans are insane or just RSE? And why is that not a attack? Most people would not look favorably upon being implied to be insane. Just a joke? Then it's in the same class as a bully pushing a little kid into the mud for grins.

Quote meself, quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Just kidding.

It was quite literally a joke about 2 Texans who happen to share the same opinion about something on this forum, and a related reference to another character that made references to water in his personal insanity. And for the record, it's a lot lighter than some of the implied insults I've received around these here parts (cough-Fascist!-cough!)... but if you really took it that personally, I apologize. (That goes for you two, Ricky.)

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

Why is your opinion sacred? Why is it worth more than mine? This is the nub.

Quote meself, quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

Dude: If you know of a way to live that you believe is beneficial to your fellow Americans, you are in exactly the right country, because you have the right to SAY SO. That's why we're here.

This isn't about whose opinion is sacred. This is about discussing what's best for our country. Your opinion... that, as I understand it, your personal needs are more important than whatever's good for the country... is, as always, duly noted. I still don't see how that helps the country, though.

Originally Posted by Ralph Sir Edward

If you like the Post Office, you love a federalized car....

I like the Post Office a lot better than I like GM. Bring it on.

[RickyMaveety]

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

I'm beginning to think there's something in the water in Texas...

Originally Posted by vivaldirules

I'm with you, Steve (navels notwithstanding), and I drink bottled water. Correlation?

I exist almost entirely on soda pop .... Coca Cola, Welch's Grape, Manzanita Sol, and Diet Decaf Dr. Pepper. So, honestly, I wouldn't know.

Originally Posted by Steve Jordan

. (That goes for you two, Ricky.)

Too, Steve .... too.

Hey, just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't like you. I live in Texas ..... I disagree with pretty much everyone around me, on reproductive rights, gay rights, the separation of church and state, the environment, the economy, animal rights, and .... well, damn near everything.

I also have an EXTREMELY thick skin. I have to. I have had people taking pot shots at me since I could understand English (by my reckoning, about one-year old). So, while I love to read or hear people's logical arguments (buttressed by unbiased evidence) about things .... I don't give a teeny crap about their opinions. If I did, I would have been a suicide by age five.

[Steven Lyle Jordan]

Originally Posted by RickyMaveety

Hey, just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I don't like you. I live in Texas ..... I disagree with pretty much everyone around me, on reproductive rights, gay rights, the separation of church and state, the environment, the economy, animal rights, and .... well, damn near everything.

I have been there. (I'm occasionally there when I'm here!) I still have the chunks taken out of me to prove it. It's one of the reasons I took up writing, in fact.

Last night, my father suggested something that probably makes more sense than federalizing: Seizing all manufacturing operations of failing companies like GM and ceding them to other automakers like Toyota, at a significantly discounted cost for the facilities, on the understanding that they would retool to build particular models of their cars (Prius, in Toyota's case) in and for America.

The discount for the plants might translate into lower costs for the vehicles, making them more attractive for Americans to buy.

The alternate possibility would be a partial retool, where the plant would continue to build many of the same vehicles, but modified with more efficient electric or hybrid power plants. The full and partial retool strategies could be applied to each plant according to their present vehicle output (i.e., most inefficient-vehicle plants, including most truck plants, get fully retooled, salvageable-vehicle plants get partially retooled).

I agree that this also beats handing GM bailout money.

Oh, yeah: Diet Decaf Dr. Pepper? How do you do it?